Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

rhickok1109 wrote:

JeffreyMiller wrote:

sheajets wrote:Also made me think who could be named the meekest, most uninspiring coach. David Shula, Marty Mornhinweg and Rich Kotite immediately come to mind. If any of them pulled a gun on you you'd probably laugh

Joe Collier and Harvey Johnson from the Bills fit this model ...

Another Collier, Blanton, was a very meek, mild, soft-spoken coach. I guess that was exactly what the Browns needed after the players got tired of Paul Brown's abrasive approach.

Jim Brown certainly thrived under him:

1963: Set the new rushing record with 1,863 yards.
1964: Browns won NFL title.
1965: Won NFL MVP

Say what you want about Paul Brown, but there would not even be a Cleveland Browns if not for him. There might not even be a team in Cleveland at all. If there was, I doubt that it would have had the history that the original Browns had.

Other things: Otto Graham said that he probably would have been a defensive back for the Detroit Lions for a couple of years and then maybe sold insurance or something if not for Brown.

Blanton Collier might have spent the rest of his life coaching high school football and teaching math in Kentucky.

A lot of football coaches probably would not have reached the heights that they did or may not have even had coaching careers like Ara Parseghian, Lou Saban, Weeb Ewbank, Blanton Collier, Don Shula, Chuck Noll, etc.

Brown was famous as a high school and college coach before even starting the Cleveland Browns. With all his success coaching Massillon High School football, he also was a basketball coach there. One of his basketball teams went to the state finals.

As a Christmas movie once said, every life touches other lives. I for one loved watching those Browns teams when I was a kid.

Saban wrote:Say what you want about Paul Brown, but there would not even be a Cleveland Browns if not for him. There might not even be a team in Cleveland at all. If there was, I doubt that it would have had the history that the original Browns had.

Other things: Otto Graham said that he probably would have been a defensive back for the Detroit Lions for a couple of years and then maybe sold insurance or something if not for Brown.

Blanton Collier might have spent the rest of his life coaching high school football and teaching math in Kentucky.

A lot of football coaches probably would not have reached the heights that they did or may not have even had coaching careers like Ara Parseghian, Lou Saban, Weeb Ewbank, Blanton Collier, Don Shula, Chuck Noll, etc.

Brown was famous as a high school and college coach before even starting the Cleveland Browns. With all his success coaching Massillon High School football, he also was a basketball coach there. One of his basketball teams went to the state finals.

As a Christmas movie once said, every life touches other lives. I for one loved watching those Browns teams when I was a kid.

A guy named JamDawg has a website about Brown: http://www.angelfire.com/planet/jam-daw ... brown.html

Saban wrote:Say what you want about Paul Brown, but there would not even be a Cleveland Browns if not for him. There might not even be a team in Cleveland at all. If there was, I doubt that it would have had the history that the original Browns had.

Other things: Otto Graham said that he probably would have been a defensive back for the Detroit Lions for a couple of years and then maybe sold insurance or something if not for Brown.

Blanton Collier might have spent the rest of his life coaching high school football and teaching math in Kentucky.

A lot of football coaches probably would not have reached the heights that they did or may not have even had coaching careers like Ara Parseghian, Lou Saban, Weeb Ewbank, Blanton Collier, Don Shula, Chuck Noll, etc.

Brown was famous as a high school and college coach before even starting the Cleveland Browns. With all his success coaching Massillon High School football, he also was a basketball coach there. One of his basketball teams went to the state finals.

As a Christmas movie once said, every life touches other lives. I for one loved watching those Browns teams when I was a kid.

As a kid I was intrigued there was a pro football team called the Cleveland Browns with a coach named Paul Brown and a star player named Jimmy Brown.

Saban wrote:Say what you want about Paul Brown, but there would not even be a Cleveland Browns if not for him. There might not even be a team in Cleveland at all. If there was, I doubt that it would have had the history that the original Browns had.

Other things: Otto Graham said that he probably would have been a defensive back for the Detroit Lions for a couple of years and then maybe sold insurance or something if not for Brown.

Blanton Collier might have spent the rest of his life coaching high school football and teaching math in Kentucky.

A lot of football coaches probably would not have reached the heights that they did or may not have even had coaching careers like Ara Parseghian, Lou Saban, Weeb Ewbank, Blanton Collier, Don Shula, Chuck Noll, etc.

Brown was famous as a high school and college coach before even starting the Cleveland Browns. With all his success coaching Massillon High School football, he also was a basketball coach there. One of his basketball teams went to the state finals.

As a Christmas movie once said, every life touches other lives. I for one loved watching those Browns teams when I was a kid.

I'm sorry if my comment was perceived as an attack on Paul Brown because I really didn't intend it to be. I have great respect for Brown as a coach and especially as an innovator who was really the first modern coach.

That said, I was a sports editor in Ohio from 1961 through November 1963 (I left Massachusetts for Ohio the day JFK was inaugurated and I left Ohio to return to Mass. the day he was assassinated) and I covered the Browns during that period. I think PB had really lost touch with his players and it was hard to argue with Modell's decision to replace him.

rhickok1109 wrote:

Saban wrote:Say what you want about Paul Brown, but there would not even be a Cleveland Browns if not for him. There might not even be a team in Cleveland at all. If there was, I doubt that it would have had the history that the original Browns had.

Other things: Otto Graham said that he probably would have been a defensive back for the Detroit Lions for a couple of years and then maybe sold insurance or something if not for Brown.

Blanton Collier might have spent the rest of his life coaching high school football and teaching math in Kentucky.

A lot of football coaches probably would not have reached the heights that they did or may not have even had coaching careers like Ara Parseghian, Lou Saban, Weeb Ewbank, Blanton Collier, Don Shula, Chuck Noll, etc.

Brown was famous as a high school and college coach before even starting the Cleveland Browns. With all his success coaching Massillon High School football, he also was a basketball coach there. One of his basketball teams went to the state finals.

As a Christmas movie once said, every life touches other lives. I for one loved watching those Browns teams when I was a kid.

I'm sorry if my comment was perceived as an attack on Paul Brown because I really didn't intend it to be. I have great respect for Brown as a coach and especially as an innovator who was really the first modern coach.

That said, I was a sports editor in Ohio from 1961 through November 1963 (I left Massachusetts for Ohio the day JFK was inaugurated and I left Ohio to return to Mass. the day he was assassinated) and I covered the Browns during that period. I think PB had really lost touch with his players and it was hard to argue with Modell's decision to replace him.

No problem. I think that Modell was a major part of the problem with the Browns the last couple of years that Paul Brown was there. His teams were still pretty tough right up until Modell arrived in 1961. I believe that Brown was undermined by Modell, and some of the players said so.

Brown did make some trades in his last year with Cleveland (1962) that played a big part of their 1964 championship acquiring Frank Ryan, Gary Collins, Bill Glass, and Ernie Green. It also helped that the New York Giants were not very good after 1963.

The other Brown (Jim) said that he got in the best shape possible before the 1963 season. He said in his book that he wanted to show that the Browns were not just Paul Brown.

The OP was asking who might be the most "tyrannical" head coaches in pro football history.

Paul Brown was, without a doubt, one of the greatest coaches in history.
He was, as any student of the game knows, a great innovator and won multiple championships (in two leagues)!

He could also be, by all accounts, a real son of a bitch when it came to dealing with people.

The two are not mutually exclusive.
It is quite possible for one man to be both.

I find it interesting that, despite his reputation, no one has mentioned Lombardi in this thread...

JuggernautJ wrote:I find it interesting that, despite his reputation, no one has mentioned Lombardi in this thread...

I'm guessing because it was a given and the level of success he had was unparalleled. While Brown achieved great heights, his Browns teams also lost four title games, while Lombardi was 5-1, 7-1 with the Super Bowls.

I remember reading how one of Lombardi's assistants, Bill Austin, tried the hard-ass routine when he took over the Steelers, pre-Noll, and was an abject failure.

I think I would rather play for ten Paul Browns than Vince Lombardi, but Lombardi has been made a saint by the sports media.

Brown did some good things too. When many coaches would wait until the final cuts before cutting some players, leaving them no place to go, Brown would give players plenty of time to catch on with another team or trade them to some team where they could play.

I remember when they used to say that Paul Brown had unparalleled success, and he did, playing in 10 straight league championship games, winning 7 of them. His Browns (Graham era) did lose some championship games by narrow margins, but they did win the ones in the NFL that mattered most (the first one and the last two, easily avenging the losses). Lombardi didn't match that, but he did win his when more people were watching. His team also won the first two Super Bowls and most people liked that.

BD Sullivan wrote:

JuggernautJ wrote:I find it interesting that, despite his reputation, no one has mentioned Lombardi in this thread...

I'm guessing because it was a given and the level of success he had was unparalleled. While Brown achieved great heights, his Browns teams also lost four title games, while Lombardi was 5-1, 7-1 with the Super Bowls.

I remember reading how one of Lombardi's assistants, Bill Austin, tried the hard-ass routine when he took over the Steelers, pre-Noll, and was an abject failure.

Lombardi was hard but you could tell he loved his guys, but once they lost a step, he wouldn't hesitate to get rid of them. If you worked your butt off for Lombardi, and gave him 100 percent, you'd have a job with him until he found somebody better than you, and that kept you working your tail off every single day.