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Historian Lists From Recent TalkOfFameTwo
Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2025 6:05 pm
by Brian wolf
TOFTWO is a great site for player's HOF advocacy, recent and past NFL history, criticism of the game being watered down or need for more money by greedy owners and has had good perspectives from recent historians who also weigh in as a jury to voter, Clark Judge's subjects of discussion and history.
These historians did recent Top 10 lists on various coaches and players who they felt were the best of all-time. They mostly concentrated on offensive players and did a great job. Like voters for the HOF, their views were subjective and invited great debate, while also adding their own viewing and researched perspective to the players and coaches.
They did Top 10 lists for Wide Receivers, Running Backs, Tight Ends, QBs and Head Coaches, while also speculating on the greatest players--regardless--of all-time. Here are their lists, if you havent visited the site, or like me ... cant directly comment on the choices, on the site itself ... I dont get on FaceStalk
Historians Top 10 Receivers All-Time
Rice
Hutson
Alworth
Moss
Berry
Fitzgerald
Warfield
Largent
Harrison
Owens
Top 10 Running Backs All-Time
Brown
Payton
Sanders
Smith
Sayers
Dickerson
Van Buren
Faulk
Motley
Tomlinson
Top 10 Tight Ends All-Time
Gronkowski
Mackey
Winslow
Gonzalez
Ditka
Kelce
Newsome
Gates
Sharpe
Casper
Top 10 Quarterbacks All-Time
Brady
Unitas
Montana
Graham
P Manning
Baugh
Mahomes
Elway
Marino
Rodgers
Top 10 Head Coaches All-Time
Brown
Belichick
Lombardi
Halas
Walsh
Shula
Noll
Lambeau
Landry
Gibbs
Haha ... I will do my lists and comments shortly. Thanks for everyone involved in these debates, listings and perspective.
Re: Historian Lists From Recent TalkOfFameTwo
Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2025 4:37 pm
by Brian wolf
I have been slightly outspoken on some of my comments on ProFootballJournal but we all have our preferences.
Omissions From The Top 10 Lists That SMH
Staubach
Bradshaw
Favre
Luckman
I get it, they could only do 10 QBs based on votes that were seperate among 9 historians, but its hard to leave these guys off the list. Especially Staubach and Favre. Unlike most of the QBs on the list, Bradshaw called his own plays. I can understand Baugh, who was the better player and didnt have the supporting cast like Luckman, but Luckman was the better QB.
Moore
Sterling Sharpe
Swann
Lofton
These guys were only omitted due to injuries or in the case of Lenny Moore, playing two positions but I would stubbornly take all of them over Terrell Owens, who had Top 5 talent--especially running with the ball, like Charley Taylor or John Mackey--but was too selfish a player for different teams for me to put in a Top 10.
Lofton was Jerry Rice before Jerry Rice but with more speed but didnt have his legendary longevity.*
Witten
Jackie Smith
Jerry Smith
Witten is a true head-scratcher omission. A pass catcher, a blocker and leader--even Terrell Owens on the Cowboys was jealous of him--he should be included but the voters went for huge non-blocking receivers, though some did sporatically. Doesnt matter, Jackie Smith could be a good blocker and was a big play receiver. Jerry Smith held the TD catch record for tight Ends for many years. He wasnt as good as all these tight ends but former 49er, Vernon Davis, might have been the mostly physically gifted of all these players ...
Simpson
Jim Taylor
Peterson
Harris
The Running Back list is very tough and debatable but its very hard to leave these guys off. I respect Marion Motley tremendously, but for me, fullback-blockers begin and end with Jim Taylor, who was the catalyst of the GB dynasty. Cookie Gilchrist and Csonka were similar as well and of course, Latone, Nagurski and Hinkle were pioneers at the position. Franco Harris, like Jim Brown, was an explosive runner and could catch the ball as well but Bradshaw liked to go to his receivers.
Simpson and Peterson were just as dynamic and explosive as Dickerson and all three were more one-dimensional. Simpson owned the 1970s as a popular player.
Reid
Ewbank
Parker
These HCs have the most championships without being in the Top 10. I can understand Weeb not making it due to many poor seasons while he was rebuilding virtual expansion teams but I cant understand why Reid didnt make it? Like Belichick, Brown, Walsh, Lombardi and others, he won with a great QB but also took another very good QB to a SB. Is he omitted because of those embarrassing SB losses? He still could get more championships and maybe the voters are withholding till his career is over.
Parker could be part of the list as well but quit on teams at the wrong time, which keeps him out of the Hall --for younger fans that didnt know-- haha
*edited
Re: Historian Lists From Recent TalkOfFameTwo
Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2025 3:01 pm
by Brian wolf
This is the third time I have updated my lists since 2020. They will change again soon enough.
My Top Ten QBs All-Time
Brady
Montana
Unitas
Graham
Staubach
Elway
Favre
P Manning
Bradshaw
Mahomes
Very close calls, but I tried to emphasize their ability to lead their teams to wins over just throwing the ball. Luckman, Baugh, Young, Rodgers, Layne and Marino just missed.
Top 10 Running Backs
Payton
Brown
Sanders
Smith
Peterson
Van Buren
Faulk
Simpson
J Taylor
Tomlinson
Close with Dickerson, Allen, Dorsett, Henry, Harris and Craig not far behind.
Top 10 Wide Receivers
Rice
Hutson
Warfield
Alworth
Harrison
Berry
Moss
Largent
Swann
Lofton
Another tough list with Calvin Johnson, Fitzgerald, Owens, Sterling Sharpe, Benton, Charley Taylor, Irvin, Tim Brown, Fears and Julio Jones just missing the cut. Without injuries, Sterling Sharpe would be Top 5 but was probably the second official receiver behind Rice to pout or complain about not getting the ball.
Great article on Fitzgerald, ReadJack, but its sooo close. I couldnt have put Fitzgerald on the list without adding his mentor, Cris Carter. Both receivers had everything but speed. Fitzgerald thrived with Boldin on the team but suffered once throwers Warner and Palmer left. With his Jerry Rice-like production, longevity, smarts and the best hands since Carter, Fitz could indeed be first ballot elected but his lack of accolades, middling seasons with average or running QBs, keeps him just out.
Top 10 Tight Ends
Casper
Gronk
Ditka
Winslow
Witten
Mackey
Jackie Smith
Kelce
Gates
Gonzalez
I tried to choose more blockers over huge receivers but it was tough due to the changing eras. Newsome, Kittle, Jerry Smith, Arbanas, Francis and Sanders just miss. Without injuries, like Sayers as a RB, Bavaro would be Top 5.
My Top 10 Head Coaches
Shula
Belichick
Brown
Lombardi
Halas
Walsh
Noll
Landry
Gibbs
Ewbank
Reid should be in the Top 10, but lost too many big championship games compared with the other coaches but will be added later. Ewbank was too influential to NFL history to be ignored. Without him, there is no merger into 26 teams. Lambeau, Parker and Owens just missed but glad the historians recognized Lambeau, who was a great winner, who championed the forward pass even before the T-Formation became standard.
Re: Historian Lists From Recent TalkOfFameTwo
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2025 1:45 am
by SeahawkFever
Interesting lists. In particular Paul Brown at number one among the coaches. Not sure if I'd put him first, but he was a great innovator, and his teams definitely won, and in dominating fashion.
Also, I don't know about Joe Gibbs at only tenth.
Looking at your third list Brian, out of curiosity, why Marvin Harrison over Randy Moss?
Also, as for the tight ends, the player you have listed that most illustrates that you are valuing blocking heavily is Jackie Smith at number seven.
Not that he couldn't catch, or get yards afterward (he had the most receiving yards for a tight end through his retirement in 1978 I believe), but if the Cowboys wanted to bring him back in 1979 after a season where he had no catches and had the drop in the Super Bowl, then he really must've been able to block.
Seventh feels possibly a tad high, but a player like Smith probably gets underrated or at least overlooked over time because he would've been asked to block, and played on offense through a significant portion of that 68-77 period I mentioned last post I made, and therefore his receiving stats wouldn't look like much now as with pretty much any tight end of the era.
Today, I see articles like one on Deadspin that list Jackie Smith as an undeserving Hall of Famer because of the drop in Super Bowl 13, and the fact that his receiving stats look so pedestrian today (not a take I'd agree with at all as it ignores eras, and how well he blocked is typically not mentioned in such articles, but one I've seen).
Good lists, thanks for sharing them!
Re: Historian Lists From Recent TalkOfFameTwo
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2025 3:31 am
by Brian wolf
Thanks Seahawk Fever, if you havent been to the TalkOfFameTwo website, its a great player advocacy site of deserving cases for the HOVG and HOF ...
I liked the historians picks and its hard to go wrong on most of the players but we all are subjective. I feel Randy Moss was a great player but I feel Harrison was better. I felt he was similar to Paul Warfield where he could leave defenders in the dust with his quickness, moves and precise patterns, though Moss of course could just run by everyone. I didnt feel Moss could go inside or short on routes like Harrison could and Moss could be moody and play when he wanted to, while Harrison was quiet and business like.
Both were great weapons for their respective teams, though Moss, after a dispute with the Patriots, had a disastrous 2010 season. Going to the 49ers brought some focus and love for the game back, though both receivers could struggle in postseason.
Jackie Smith could block but not like John Mackey and was the proto-type huge receiver that would help bring along the Winslow's and Newsome's into gameplans, attacking the seams or middle of the field. Had his TDs been higher, would have went further up the list.
I may have been wrong leaving Fitzgerald out of my Top 10 but was looking at different eras choosing Swann and Lofton. Forget career statistics--concussions and big hits from high leaps forced Swann to retire--but he was so clutch and graceful in huge games. Seeing him kill my Cowboys, I wasnt going to downplay his career like so many young writers do, who didnt watch his games. Lofton was another explosive deep threat for GB that had fans salivating like later fans did for Moss. He deserved his rejuvenance with the Bills after being lost amongst other speedsters with the Raiders. Its too bad he couldnt do more in the SBs but I feel the Cowboys were still glad he wasnt facing them in their 1993/94 repeat championship.
With a halftime lead for the Bills, he might have made a difference in their second half ...
Re: Historian Lists From Recent TalkOfFameTwo
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2025 8:25 am
by Halas Hall
A great list of the top ten coaches
Re: Historian Lists From Recent TalkOfFameTwo
Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2025 2:10 pm
by Brian wolf
Yeah, its tough placing Gibbs who never had the truly great QB like Reid or Walsh to place even higher. Still, 3/4 SBs shows how far he could innovate with Gillman-Coryell offensive concepts and usage of an offensive line. His teams could also be up and down with many people considering two of his championships as fluke seasons. I dont see 1987 being that way but he was definitely rewarded for having faith in Williams being his starter.
Maybe he should be placed higher getting these QBs to play over their expectations, though Williams always had the talent.
In terms of great talent, its hard not to list Sayers on any list but another back to consider was Priest Holmes who was chugging along until a knee injury did him in. With many backs its just a matter of time. We can only imagine what he, Billy Sims, Sayers and Terrell Davis could have done without the injuries?
Thats why longevity has to be a factor in helping a player make the HOF. To overcome knee injuries in college and have the career Frank Gore had, was amazing. He didnt have the spectacular talent of many of these backs but he should have a place in the HOF. How long will he wait?
Re: Historian Lists From Recent TalkOfFameTwo
Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2025 10:39 am
by JohnH19
Their top 6 QB’s, top 4 RB’s and top 4 WR’s are in complete accordance with my lists.
Re: Historian Lists From Recent TalkOfFameTwo
Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2025 1:22 pm
by Ten Minute Ticker
Brian wolf wrote: ↑Sun Jul 20, 2025 4:37 pm
I have been slightly outspoken on some of my comments on ProFootballJournal but we all have our preferences.
Omissions From The Top 10 Lists That SMH
Staubach
Bradshaw
Favre
Luckman
I get it, they could only do 10 QBs based on votes that were seperate among 9 historians, but its hard to leave these guys off the list. Especially Staubach and Favre. Unlike most of the QBs on the list, Bradshaw called his own plays. I can understand Baugh, who was the better player and didnt have the supporting cast like Luckman, but Luckman was the better QB.
Moore
Sterling Sharpe
Swann
Lofton
These guys were only omitted due to injuries or in the case of Lenny Moore, playing two positions but I would stubbornly take all of them over Terrell Owens, who had Top 5 talent--especially running with the ball, like Charley Taylor or John Mackey--but was too selfish a player for different teams for me to put in a Top 10.
Lofton was Jerry Rice before Jerry Rice but with more speed but didnt have his legendary longevity.*
Witten
Jackie Smith
Jerry Smith
Witten is a true head-scratcher omission. A pass catcher, a blocker and leader--even Terrell Owens on the Cowboys was jealous of him--he should be included but the voters went for huge non-blocking receivers, though some did sporatically. Doesnt matter, Jackie Smith could be a good blocker and was a big play receiver. Jerry Smith held the TD catch record for tight Ends for many years. He wasnt as good as all these tight ends but former 49er, Vernon Davis, might have been the mostly physically gifted of all these players ...
Simpson
Jim Taylor
Peterson
Harris
The Running Back list is very tough and debatable but its very hard to leave these guys off. I respect Marion Motley tremendously, but for me, fullback-blockers begin and end with Jim Taylor, who was the catalyst of the GB dynasty. Cookie Gilchrist and Csonka were similar as well and of course, Latone, Nagurski and Hinkle were pioneers at the position. Franco Harris, like Jim Brown, was an explosive runner and could catch the ball as well but Bradshaw liked to go to his receivers.
Simpson and Peterson were just as dynamic and explosive as Dickerson and all three were more one-dimensional. Simpson owned the 1970s as a popular player.
Reid
Ewbank
Parker
These HCs have the most championships without being in the Top 10. I can understand Weeb not making it due to many poor seasons while he was rebuilding virtual expansion teams but I cant understand why Reid didnt make it? Like Belichick, Brown, Walsh, Lombardi and others, he won with a great QB but also took another very good QB to a SB. Is he omitted because of those embarrassing SB losses? He still could get more championships and maybe the voters are withholding till his career is over.
Parker could be part of the list as well but quit on teams at the wrong time, which keeps him out of the Hall --for younger fans that didnt know-- haha
*edited
Good read. I would counter to say that James Lofton had significant longevity - a productive receiver deep into his second decade in Buffalo.
Lofton’s problem was a slump in the middle of his career. Once Lynn Dickey faded with the Packers, Lofton had really bad QBs in his final years with the Packers. He was also distracted by legal issues at the time. His years with the Raiders were a total waste.
As special as he was for the Packers, especially in that 1981-84 period where Bob Schnelker really found creative ways to use his speed, I’m not sure he’s in the HOF without his Bills revival.
Re: Historian Lists From Recent TalkOfFameTwo
Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2025 5:46 am
by JuggernautJ
Very sorry to see Talk Of Fame Two shut down.
It was always a good read.
I can't begin to express my gratitude for all I learned perusing that site.
(Thank you, John and Clark and all who participated... you will be sorely missed)
Do we know for how long its articles will remain accessible?
https://talkoffametwo.com/nfl/talk-of-fame-two-closes