Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Hopefully, TJ's research will be at PFR eventually. But in the meantime the process for showing "takeaways" (INT + FR) as some writers do usually, is total fumbles recovered, whether offensive or defensive.

Usually it does not matter much ... Butkus 27 total, 25 def -- like that.

But with Bednarik, he has 13 defensive fumbles recovered and 21 total. I have been starting to go through the charts I have and making the corrections, but it is a pain in the neck. The only source I know isthe NFL Record (and Fact) books. And AFL has almost nothing.

So, if a guy has a 13-year career you have to look at all 13 Record books to make sure. For the AFL, you have to go through gamebooks ...

It's an interesting situation -- for several reasons.
First, fumbles recovered is often luck -- we read (at least me) growing up that such and such had a nose for the ball. Well, maybe that's true and maybe it's not, but the value of them is limited because a lot of the time guys have 1 or none or two FRs in a year. It's a rare play for an individual, the NFL record is under 30.

Second, even if someone had 30 takeaways (15 INT, 15 FR) does it matter that for most people the 15 includes an offensive recovery, maybe someone got one on special teams or fell on a loose ball that another defensive player fumbled.

Third, if all of it were complete -- and available .. how much does it matter?

I think wit NFLGSIS you can separate out defense, special teams and "misc) but you still have to check on PFR because they use the total number. You can use ESPN Stats ... and they show def FR -- and don't add in misc ... but the special teams and misc may be added together ...

I guess all this shows -- the defensive stats are always going to be skewed, sacks (one guys does work, another gets the sack, also double teams), tackles (sometimes a lot of tackles is because defense is bad, cannot get off the field), INT (guys with big INT sometimes picked on), FR (a decent factor of luck)

I like to count things, but also consider the skews, but if we do have the FRs, would be nice to see if a significant number are not necessarily takeaways --

Like you said John, defensive statistics can be skewed and somewhat overrated, simply because the players are reacting and trying to work within a systematic framework. When great defenses work together without selfishness or straying too far out of position, the statistics can come in droves but some players can be undisiplined and still pile up numbers. It would be interesting to know--based on different thorough research--who some of those HOF players are, but it could also be keeping others from the HOF.

I will admit, I am fascinated by defensive players who have high amounts of pressures and sacks but also believe there is a psychological aspect in bringing the QB, down. Jadeveon Clowney is a great example. He can pressure a QB, but not always bring him down, whereas, a Cedrick Hardman could get the QB down but like Dwight Freeney, allow to many rushing yards inside of his rush. Of course, the best QBs ignore, or arent intimidated by getting sacked and others like Favre and Brady, want to get the ball out quickly, without getting hit at all. I know QBs today have their own styles and instincts for playing, but I am amazed that they dont study or emulate the passing mechanics of a Brady, Montana, Peyton Manning, Brees or Favre more often?

I know fumbles recovered is an impressive statistic but who was truly the best at forcing fumbles, besides obvious pass rushers? Maybe Charles Tillman wont make the HOF, but his ability to force fumbles--recovered by teammates or not--was amazing. According to official, forced fumble numbers from PFR, Tillman, Brian Dawkins and Charles Woodson are the top three for players in a secondary but are there unofficial numbers that Coach Troup, Nick Webster, Chris Willis or others are tracking and hopefully, documenting for Pro Football-Reference?

Brian wolf wrote: ↑Sun Jun 08, 2025 2:45 pm According to official, forced fumble numbers from PFR, Tillman, Brian Dawkins and Charles Woodson are the top three for players in a secondary

Just remember DBs started going for more strips ... but also, PFR mostly have post-1994 suff. Bruce Smith has 50 or so (would have to check notes) LT is at 48 or 50 based on film and gamebook study ... the Giants' number was like 32 or something ... so 18 were recovered from film ..

but back in the day, defenders were not taught to strip, too risky, coaches wanted sure tackles, but you could still see it from time to time in the 1960s and 1970s ... fumbles are intriguing --- but there needs to be more info at some point.. Hopefully soon.

Early AFL is hard, though I bet Elias has it. In the 1970 NFL recordbook that includes 1969 AFL stats,shows Jim Lee Hunt as all-time AFL FR leader with 15 or 16 (book not handy) but only later years show at PFR.

I have looked up some guys ... but need to do more for AFL.

Jim Marshall and Jason Taylor are tied for all-time opponents fumble recoveries with 29 each.

The only place I know of online that you will find the yearly own and opponent recovery data is my site.

TodMaher wrote: ↑Mon Jun 09, 2025 12:30 pm Jim Marshall and Jason Taylor are tied for all-time opponents fumble recoveries with 29 each.

The only place I know of online that you will find the yearly own and opponent recovery data is my site.

SO glad you are back up. Thank you, had forgotten you had all that. It's super helpful.

People criticize Jason Taylor being a first ballot selection, yet he also made alot of big plays for the Dolphins defense. I wonder how he might have been had he been more ornery or nasty like an Alzado, Philbin or Manley?

The 1995 Packers, who nearly made it to Super Bowl 30, hold the NFL record for fewest opponent fumbles recovered in a season...... 3