Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

A ton of information in this article about the early voting process for the Hall of Fame. The unanimous thing always was curious --- Bob Oates told me that is how "they wanted it" early on ... but Don Smith once said it was engineered, that once the group was decided on those who objected were asked to take back their vote.

True or not, I don't know, but for the initial classes, the claim of unanimous may not be accurate. When Oates told me that, he said it in a way that suggested they weren't. We were talking about Bennry Freidman and why he was omitted early on

Anyway, learned a lot from this article by Cliff Christl

https://www.packers.com/news/how-can-on ... ll-of-fame

JohnTurney wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2024 9:51 pm A ton of information in this article about the early voting process of the Hall of Fame. THe unanimous thing always was curious --- Bob Oates told be that is how "they wanted it" early on ... but Don Smith once said it was engineered, that once the group was decidiced on those who objected were asked to take back their vote.

True or not, I don't know, but for the initial classes the claim of unanimous may not be accurate. When Oates told me that, he said it in a way that suggested they weren't. We were talking about Bennry Freidman and why he was omitted early on

Anyway, learned a lot from this article buy Cliff Christl

https://www.packers.com/news/how-can-on ... ll-of-fame

Very well written article by Cliff Christl on the inner workings of the hall of fame voting and there were some stuff i didnt even know before my question is who is more deserving Dilweg or Lewellen

rewing84 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 12:33 am who is more deserving Dilweg or Lewellen

IMO gotta be both ... at some point

I concur 110%

Thanks for sharing. I agree that Lewellen was one of the best players of his era, but its funny to me that any credence was placed on a 1920's All-Decade team. Those teams usually are terrible, and that is from an era when all the games are on TV and all the stats are in front of you. And the All-Decade demarcation is completely arbitrary. Which brings me to my second point...

...does anyone agree that Lewellen was better than Sid Luckman? "Not only was Lewellen the highest-ranked player not in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, he was placed one spot behind Bronko Nagurski and one ahead of Sid Luckman"? Is this just a convenient accounting trick where Luckman's 1946-1950 seasons are ignored? And even if you only count Luckman's 1939-1945 accomplishments, would you still put him below Lewellen?

Cliff is so great - another great article from him. The story of Conzleman and Rooney getting in by "voice vote" - Does that mean they said - all in favor say "aye"???

This reminded me of an article that I found of Daley's - I think it was part of the Sports of the Times column. He wrote that the Pro Football HOF was by far the most difficult HOF in which to be inducted.

The 1920s All-Decade Team - two of the backfield spots are Red Grange and Jim Thorpe. Christl points out that Thorpe only made all-pro once in the 20s, and that Grange didn't make one until the 30s. But it's easy to understand how they're on there from a historical standpoint. Curly Lambeau - probably founding the Packers conceivably helped his chances immensely over Lewellyn in the voting. That might be why Lewellyn got overlooked on the All-Decade and as time goes by, fewer and fewer people even know who he is.

There's a fair chance that several all-time greats who are not well known or are completely undiscovered. For example Ki Aldrich - I recently restored an audio interview in which he said that he was voted by former Washington players as the best player in the first 50 years of Redskins history (maybe it was 25 years - this was a 1980 interview - so I may not have remembered that actual anniversary correctly). Aldrich claimed that the person conducting the poll said, "Well, I guess you're going to vote for yourself, right? Every other player has voted for you." This is a guy who played with Sammy Baugh in both college and the pros. Now, I understand he's telling his own story, but it's possible that Aldrich (a lineman) has been completely overlooked historically.

Like Cliff pointed out, we don't have film on this era. We don't have stats. We only have some newspaper stories and comparatively very few first hand accounts. There's a strong chance that there are other guys from the 20s/30s/40s that were phenomenal players yet their contributions to the game have been lost.

ADDED LATER - okay, I just looked at the transcript from the Aldrich interview. He said it happened about 13 years after he retired, which would have been around 1960. He said a sportswriter approached him at a team reunion which he said was attended by 150 players. The question was, "Who is the greatest Redskin of them all?"

GameBeforeTheMoney wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2024 2:00 pm Cliff is so great - another great article from him. The story of Conzleman and Rooney getting in by "voice vote" - Does that mean they said - all in favor say "aye"???

Seems like it. Maybe he didn't know the exact specifics, but that is what I thought of.

JohnTurney wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2024 9:51 pm A ton of information in this article about the early voting process for the Hall of Fame. The unanimous thing always was curious --- Bob Oates told me that is how "they wanted it" early on ... but Don Smith once said it was engineered, that once the group was decided on those who objected were asked to take back their vote.

True or not, I don't know, but for the initial classes, the claim of unanimous may not be accurate. When Oates told me that, he said it in a way that suggested they weren't. We were talking about Bennry Freidman and why he was omitted early on

Anyway, learned a lot from this article by Cliff Christl

https://www.packers.com/news/how-can-on ... ll-of-fame

Wonder if Lewellen's tenure as GM in the 1950s, the lean years, was a factor in some voters' minds ... I mean, grasping at straws here, I know ... but team didn't do well, left bad taste in some voter's mouth?

For VL and LD seems like it is not just one thing ... maybe 2-3 things that worked against them, including them knocking each other out.

JohnTurney wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2024 9:01 pm

JohnTurney wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2024 9:51 pm A ton of information in this article about the early voting process for the Hall of Fame. The unanimous thing always was curious --- Bob Oates told me that is how "they wanted it" early on ... but Don Smith once said it was engineered, that once the group was decided on those who objected were asked to take back their vote.

True or not, I don't know, but for the initial classes, the claim of unanimous may not be accurate. When Oates told me that, he said it in a way that suggested they weren't. We were talking about Bennry Freidman and why he was omitted early on

Anyway, learned a lot from this article by Cliff Christl

https://www.packers.com/news/how-can-on ... ll-of-fame

Wonder if Lewellen's tenure as GM in the 1950s, the lean years, was a factor in some voters' minds ... I mean, grasping at straws here, I know ... but team didn't do well, left bad taste in some voter's mouth?

For VL and LD seems like it is not just one thing ... maybe 2-3 things that worked against them, including them knocking each other out.

I'm thinking they cancel each other out

rewing84 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 21, 2024 12:53 am I'm thinking they cancel each other out

Maybe now ... but I was thinking about then. I know it's hard to get into the heads of voters at the time -- it's possible they didn't think in terms of "too many Packers" or "too many Giants" that is more of a modern ethic, but that's a guess.

It's just odd because both players checked a lot of boxes ... though a lot of the stats were not known at the time... in the early to mid-1960s