Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Maynard had a much longer peak - so he's kind of the oddball, Alworth in a way, too.

Always fascinated by how Powell's numbers stand up . . . and
also that Giants, Eagles, and Bears had three of these guys
that couldn't make their teams

AFL Receivers HOF cases

Powell
O Taylor
L Taylor
Hennigan

HOVG Cases

Cappelletti
Wells
Sauer Jr
Burford

Would have loved to have seen Art Powell play. All of these guys really, but Powell seems to be a guy that is underrated even among underrated players. Interesting to note that he and Maynard were on the Titans at the same time and Powell actually outgained Maynard in two of those three years. I mean, if Powell stays in New York and plays a few years with Namath in that media market, he might be in the HOF alongside Maynard.

Lionel Taylor told me that the Bears played him at linebacker. He said he considered himself a much better receiver and told the Broncos that he wanted to play receiver before signing with them.

Powell played mostly defense for the Eagles also. They had Tommy McDonald and Pete Retzlaff still. So that was a tough lineup for even an excellent receiver to crack.

With roster sizes of 33, 35 players, it was really tough to make an NFL team, even as a draft pick. Maynard made the Giants as a special teams guy and if I remember right, 1958 was a year when the roster size increased by two - from 33 to 35.

Brian wolf wrote:AFL Receivers HOF cases

Powell
O Taylor
L Taylor
Hennigan

HOVG Cases

Cappelletti
Wells
Sauer Jr
Burford

All of those listed with "HoF Cases" are in the Hall of (the) Very Good.
(Lionel Taylor was inducted this year, the others previously)

Gino Cappelletti is also in the HoVG.
It would be interesting to see how the other three might fare if nominated...
(hint, hint)

GameBeforeTheMoney wrote: if Powell stays in New York and plays a few years with Namath in that media market, he might be in the HOF alongside Maynard.

Lionel Taylor told me that the Bears played him at linebacker. He said he considered himself a much better receiver and told the Broncos that he wanted to play receiver before signing with them.

Powell played mostly defense for the Eagles also. They had Tommy McDonald and Pete Retzlaff still. So that was a tough lineup for even an excellent receiver to crack.

With roster sizes of 33, 35 players, it was really tough to make an NFL team, even as a draft pick. Maynard made the Giants as a special teams guy and if I remember right, 1958 was a year when the roster size increased by two - from 33 to 35.

But that was the difference between Powell and Maynard....Maynard was unique in that he kept his speed and had some of his biggest years after turning 30. Powell fell off a cliff at 30. And blasphemous as this sounds, I do take those early AFL receiving stats with a grain of salt. The competition level just wasn't up to par in terms of pass defense. Hard to say if Powell continues to excel if he remains in NY. The Powell/Lamonica trade is probably the most one-sided trade in AFL history.

I agree with you on the rosters, but I do think the NFL was really slow to integrate the WR position. Bob Mann led the league in receiving in 1949, then was traded. Bob Boyd had a big year in the mid-50s with the Rams, but he started out as a DB. Your Lionel Taylor story is interesting....cannot picture him at LB but that seems to be what the NFL did with most of the black WRs coming out of college. Somewhat related, even Maynard's case is ridiculous. That 58 Giants offense had no speed at any position. Possibly the slowest offensive team in the NFL. And Maynard can't even get on the field on offense?

Maynard admitted he didnt get along with his Giants coaches which is probably why he didnt see the field more but even if Rote was a mainstay, he should have replaced Schnelker more. Conerly needed that speed but even with the Titans and Jets, Maynard did things his own way and didnt want to block. Some players felt he never really went after passes or did routes until Namath joined the team.

Bryan wrote:

GameBeforeTheMoney wrote: if Powell stays in New York and plays a few years with Namath in that media market, he might be in the HOF alongside Maynard.

Lionel Taylor told me that the Bears played him at linebacker. He said he considered himself a much better receiver and told the Broncos that he wanted to play receiver before signing with them.

Powell played mostly defense for the Eagles also. They had Tommy McDonald and Pete Retzlaff still. So that was a tough lineup for even an excellent receiver to crack.

With roster sizes of 33, 35 players, it was really tough to make an NFL team, even as a draft pick. Maynard made the Giants as a special teams guy and if I remember right, 1958 was a year when the roster size increased by two - from 33 to 35.

But that was the difference between Powell and Maynard....Maynard was unique in that he kept his speed and had some of his biggest years after turning 30. Powell fell off a cliff at 30. And blasphemous as this sounds, I do take those early AFL receiving stats with a grain of salt. The competition level just wasn't up to par in terms of pass defense. Hard to say if Powell continues to excel if he remains in NY. The Powell/Lamonica trade is probably the most one-sided trade in AFL history.

I agree with you on the rosters, but I do think the NFL was really slow to integrate the WR position. Bob Mann led the league in receiving in 1949, then was traded. Bob Boyd had a big year in the mid-50s with the Rams, but he started out as a DB. Your Lionel Taylor story is interesting....cannot picture him at LB but that seems to be what the NFL did with most of the black WRs coming out of college. Somewhat related, even Maynard's case is ridiculous. That 58 Giants offense had no speed at any position. Possibly the slowest offensive team in the NFL. And Maynard can't even get on the field on offense?

Wow, that's really interesting. I do a lot of research around integration/HBCU players/etc, but hadn't pondered whether the NFL was slow to integrate at WR. Mostly because a lot of quarterbacks were switched to WR or DB.

George Allen put Lionel Taylor at LB. He played college ball at New Mexico Highlands and had played both ways there. Allen later tried Taylor at DB as well.

I think with Maynard and the Giants, it was just kind of a different time. Rote was solid for his time, Schelker was averaging about 20 ypc, and the Giants loved their running backs -- Gifford, Webster, Mel Tripplet, and they used Phil King quite a bit. With a 35-man roster, that's what - six guys right there, all proven, which is what teams like the Giants tended to stay with rather than replacing somebody with a new guy. Also, the Giants ran Maynard more than they threw to him the few snaps he got on offense, so it appears more like he was grouped in with those halfbacks rather than at receiver.

Bryan,

This part of your post i fully agree with 110% : And blasphemous as this sounds, I do take those early AFL receiving stats with a grain of salt. The competition level just wasn't up to par in terms of pass defense.

My Question is what timeframe of afl receiving stats do you take with a grain a salt?

rewing84 wrote:Bryan,

This part of your post i fully agree with 110% : And blasphemous as this sounds, I do take those early AFL receiving stats with a grain of salt. The competition level just wasn't up to par in terms of pass defense.

My Question is what timeframe of afl receiving stats do you take with a grain a salt?

Why is it blasphemous to think so? The truth is the AFL was far inferior to the NFL in the early 1960s. The AFL was a new league and did not have access to the top players and talent that the NFL did.

rewing84 wrote:My Question is what timeframe of afl receiving stats do you take with a grain a salt?

I was going to say something pithy like "whenever Dainard Paulson stopped making the pro bowl", but upon further inspection that isn't accurate. I would say anything between 1960-1964 is suspect. If you look at 1964, you still had some ridiculous numbers being put up. Henningan had over 100 catches, Dubenion had over 1000 yards on just 42 catches, 5 of the top receivers had over 20 YPC (including Fred Arbanas). When you turn the page to 1965, the only guy with crazy numbers is Lance Alworth. It seems like the DB quality of in 1965 also got better...you had guys like Butch Byrd and Willie Brown at CB, and then in later years you are adding Kent McGloughan, Johnny Sample, Kenny Graham, Miller Farr, etc. Of course in some ways this was just gradual, but if you are looking for a clear delineation, I would say 60-64 was 'sus' and 65-69 can be taken at face value.