Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

With Pudge Heffelfinger the first documented paid professional in 1892, there are nearly three decades of professional football to draw from to put together an All Pre-NFL/APFA Team. I assume these guys would be ineligible for the HOVG, but maybe they deserve to be recognized for their contributions as builders of the sport.

Are there any names that stand out from those years that should be considered for such a team?

For quarterback, I would put forth the argument that Rube Ursella belongs on that team. He played independent/semi-pro/pro football from 1907-1919 before playing off and on through 1929 in the NFL/APA. I understand he was a great punter and drop-kicker, which held huge importance back then, and he was a great signal-caller.

Pre-NFL (APFA) are eligible for the HOVG. I have been pushing for Peggy Parratt for a while, as well as Ted Nesser. Nesser has made it in, but I am still working on Parratt.

Norb Sacksteder ?

I recall reading about Rube Ursella in The Sunday Game: At the Dawn of Professional Football by Keith McClellan, but I guess he didn't jump out as much to me as he did to you. I've started a few threads in the HOVG section listing players accomplishments. I think it helped for Tony Latone. I'd like to read more if you have time to post something.

I wouldn't want to choose one all-11 for all those seasons - that would be tough. I'd like to give it a shot at some point for the eras PFRA separated:

1890-1903: I've been calling it the "Pittsburgh Circuit". Also top teams from Westmoreland County, Franklin, etc. so I guess Western PA may work better? Suggestions appreciated.
1903/04-1919: Ohio League

I usually get bogged down with the lineman. Backs are a bit easier. I don't think the QB was allowed to run or pass until 1903. In '03 he could run, then in '06 he could pass. Early passers like Mahrt and Dorias I think would get consideration at QB, but passing was risky if you didn't have someone good at it, lots of turnovers. The best early QB may have just been good "field generals", blockers, tacklers on defense, etc. who occasionally passed.

In terms of just my 5 HOVG nominations, Herman Kerchoff played in both eras. I really like him. Ohio league, Parratt and Sacksteder as mentioned. I also like Homer Davidson. I've never done all 5 from pre-NFL. It would be interesting if a few of us did that, maybe get some new names in front of the committee.

TanksAndSpartans wrote:I recall reading about Rube Ursella in The Sunday Game: At the Dawn of Professional Football by Keith McClellan, but I guess he didn't jump out as much to me as he did to you. I've started a few threads in the HOVG section listing players accomplishments. I think it helped for Tony Latone. I'd like to read more if you have time to post something.

I wouldn't want to choose one all-11 for all those seasons - that would be tough. I'd like to give it a shot at some point for the eras PFRA separated:

1890-1903: I've been calling it the "Pittsburgh Circuit". Also top teams from Westmoreland County, Franklin, etc. so I guess Western PA may work better? Suggestions appreciated.
1903/04-1919: Ohio League

I usually get bogged down with the lineman. Backs are a bit easier. I don't think the QB was allowed to run or pass until 1903. In '03 he could run, then in '06 he could pass. Early passers like Mahrt and Dorias I think would get consideration at QB, but passing was risky if you didn't have someone good at it, lots of turnovers. The best early QB may have just been good "field generals", blockers, tacklers on defense, etc. who occasionally passed.

In terms of just my 5 HOVG nominations, Herman Kerchoff played in both eras. I really like him. Ohio league, Parratt and Sacksteder as mentioned. I also like Homer Davidson. I've never done all 5 from pre-NFL. It would be interesting if a few of us did that, maybe get some new names in front of the committee.

In the single wing, the early passers would have been left halfbacks, not quarterbacks. In the Notre Dame shift system, the QB was often the chief passer.

Good point, it's easy to fall into that same mode I mentioned in the other thread of calling the s-w tailback a QB because he took the snap, passed, etc. But,... when you first started seeing passing in '06, I would guess the offensive formation would have looked a lot like a T formation. I'm not sure how fast the adoption of the single-wing was. I think back in '06 anyone throwing a pass would have been a QB although I'm not sure any team was throwing more than the occasional pass back then.

At Carlisle, in 1907, Frank Mt. Pleasant was the designated QB and was considered by Warner, and many others, to be the finest passer of the day.

@JeffreyMiller, Did you read The Real All Americans: The Team That Changed a Game, a People, a Nation by Sally Jenkins? I read one of the Thorpe bios, but there wasn't much football content, so I have this one as a maybe especially since I assume there isn't any pro football content. The Pierce brothers who played for Carlisle about a decade earlier actually did play on multiple pro teams. Did Mt. Pleasant play a little before Thorpe and Calac?

I enjoyed Jenkins' book. Superior to Lars Anderson's book which came out around the same time.
Mount Pleasant left after 1907, which was Thorpe's first year. Thorpe didn't play much that year

JeffreyMiller wrote:I enjoyed Jenkins' book. Superior to Lars Anderson's book which came out around the same time.
Mount Pleasant left after 1907, which was Thorpe's first year. Thorpe didn't play much that year

Thank you! I will check it out.