Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

That is to say, who do you think has held the title of the NFL's "Greatest of All Time" at each point in the league's history, when did each player first state their claim to the title, and for how long did they hold it? Pretty simple. This is sure to trigger some interesting discussion about various eras in NFL history.

In football, there are generally two concurrent "GOAT" debates running at once: the one that centers around quarterbacks exclusively, and that which considers relative dominance at all positions fairly equally. So I'll do a list for both categories. Subsequent posters may take this approach or simply list one order.

All positions:

1. Benny Friedman (QB, 1929-1942) - In a time when almost all players had short careers, Friedman, the first true NFL quarterback, was able to lay claim to this very early in his. He was the best player in football immediately, and 1928, when he may have led the league in all major passing and rushing stats, put him farther above his contemporaries than possibly any player in NFL history. But the GOAT status became unequivocal the following year, when the Giants bought out the entire Detroit franchise to acquire him, and he got even better with them.

2. Don Hutson (WR, 1942-1963) - Like Friedman, Hutson essentially created a new position on the field, and dominated it out of the gate like few ever would again. But obviously, his 1942, which may still be the greatest receiving season of all time, is what clinched him as the undisputed GOAT. Sammy Baugh is also a strong contender for this spot, considering his multi-positional excellence, but he never displayed near Hutson's level of dominance, and definitely hadn't attained GOAT status by 1942.

3. Jim Brown (RB, 1963-1995) - Unlike his forebears in this progression, Jim Brown didn't invent the modern RB position, but he certainly revolutionized it. He was the best player in football by a mile as of his second season in 1958, but I would say he broke the GOAT barrier with his 1963, the first 2000-yard scrimmage season in 14 games.

4. Jerry Rice (WR, 1995-2020) - I still find it incredible that none of the great receivers of this inflated passing era have even come close to touching Jerry Rice's achievements, such is the extent to which he wrote the book and it is finished. 1995 seems like the right spot to crown him the clear GOAT; it's the first time he concurrently held the single-season yardage and TD records (so long Henny), he had long since taken the career records, and it was clear he would take them farther. His pace did begin to fall off after this, but he still proceeded to put this debate away considerably.

5. Tom Brady (QB, 2020-present) - While the Manning-Brady debates raged (we'll get to that in a moment), I always thought Rice stood firmly above the fray. That changed in 2020, when Brady moved to a new team at 43 and immediately won another Super Bowl with one of his better statistical seasons. But more importantly for these purposes, it was when he proved that he was going to share (and even exceed) Rice's unprecedented longevity, which is always what I felt he would need to eclipse him. So far this season, he's looking like he can hold this position for the next half century, putting it out of reach even for a current generation with at least 6-7 future Hall of Fame QBs drafted in the last 5 years.

I'm interested to see if anyone would put a defensive player in this ordering. I don't think one has been sufficiently dominant, but there's certainly a conceivable alternate reality where there could have been. For example, I don't think one would need to add too much to Reggie White's resume (along with removing Rice from history) for him to have an honest case.

Now for the QBs:

1. Benny Friedman (1929-1945) - Obviously, there is no other candidate for this era. His running ability is going to be problematic for the two contenders for the next spot on this list.

2. Sammy Baugh (1945-1954) - Note that for the QB-exclusive list, I'm only considering factors that relate to QB play, so for example, running counts, but defense doesn't. That makes this much closer than you'd think between Baugh and Sid Luckman. When did each surpass Friedman? Neither ran like him, which means they needed to do much more throwing the ball. Baugh and Luckman both broke Friedman's single-season passing yards and TD records in 1943, and Baugh had already taken the career marks from him by then, with Luckman soon to follow. If Friedman's running still put him on top at that time, I think it's clear that both Baugh and Luckman had done enough to surpass him by the end of 1947. So it's really close, but who got there first? The best single season between them is probably Luckman's 1943, but I'll say Baugh went full GOAT first for his 1945, when he broke the completion percentage record by approximately two light years.

3. Otto Graham (1954-2013) - Graham's AAFC work was as strong as the best of Baugh and Luckman, but he pulled away from them convincingly when he started putting up black numbers and winning titles again in the NFL. It's tough to pinpoint exactly when; 1953 was probably his best NFL season, but he had a random train wreck of a playoff game, so definitely by 1954, his second NFL championship. Now, this is going to be the most controversial take I offer in this post: I think Graham held onto this position up to the modern era, however much by a mere thread. That means all the way through Unitas, who would have taken it if his abilities didn't fail him fairly early; Montana, who was the consummate winner between Graham and Brady, but wasn't dynamic enough in my opinion; Marino, who would have run away with it if he maintained near his early pace, but he too began to decline too quickly; and even Favre, whose durability and longevity are incomparable, but was just far too erratic; the latter two also lacked severely in the winning department in comparison. Graham, by contrast, had a near-perfectly consistent run, and the only knock on him is a fairly short career. He even developed a semblance of a run threat as his career went on. That's not to say these QBs didn't come close; I'd say all of them came reasonably so, and I'd definitely listen to arguments for any of them, and maybe a couple more. But Graham's combination of regularly being the best passer in the league and always a threat to win a ring wasn't matched until modern times.

4. Peyton Manning (2013-2017) - Cue the Manning-Brady arguments. Whether you have Graham eclipsed prior to the modern era or not, one could argue that Peyton claimed this spot earlier as a Colt, but 2013 feels like the perfect moment to state that he had put it beyond all reasonable doubt, having come back from a career-threatening injury, only to have the greatest passing season of all time. If not for his unfortunately abrupt decline due to the recurrence of his nerve damage, he could still be contending for this position... literally.

5. Tom Brady (2017-present) - While it would take him a few more years still to exceed Rice, I'd say he claimed this place with his most recent MVP season in 2017, helped by Manning's aforementioned skill collapse. He lost the Super Bowl to the Philly Special this year, but he had just gotten to 5 rings the year before with the greatest SB performance ever, so not too big a deal, I'd say. While Graham narrowly held onto this title for over half a century, one could argue that all of Brady, Manning, Rodgers, and Brees have surpassed him by now, and multiple currently young QBs appear likely to as well. But for anyone to pass Brady, playing until he's 50 or something ridiculous? That's going to take a long time.

What do you all think? I'm sure everyone here has differing opinions about this topic, and I want to hear all of them!

Lots of great points as usual J&L but there is no way I would look at Graham as more dominant than a field general like Unitas, who called his own plays. For a time there, Bobby Layne and the Lions dominated the Browns and Graham, though Otto was the consummate winner like Luckman before him. To say Montana wasnt dynamic enough makes me wonder if you saw enough of his games but Montana also didnt call his own plays, so like Graham, he has to endure the same arguments of how much credit he deserves over his Head Coach, though as we all know, head coaches despite their gameplans, never have pass rushers in their FACE.

For me, Brady is the only QB who comes close to Montana or Unitas but my focus has always been more about a QB leading a team to victory over any superior passing that Marino, Bradshaw, Favre or Manning have displayed.

Youre right about Jim Brown for his time and even now but I believe Payton was dominant as well and more of a complete back who never had the supporting cast Brown had ...

I personally believe Ronnie Lott, Lawrence Taylor, Reggie White and Ray Lewis were dominant on defense but they arent remembered like the offensive players like Hutson, Brown, Payton, Montana, Rice or Brady ...

How did Jim Brown "revolutionize" the RB position?

Jim Brown was actually a FB. The possibility a team's leading rusher may actually be their FB was still true in the early '80s, but it was also true from the advent of 2 back sets, mostly split backs which I think we started seeing in the '50s, so it wasn't something new when Brown entered. Anyway, I agree with Ralph, I don't think you are framing Brown correctly.

From what I remember there was a period where Joe Montana at least being considered the GOAT QB was prevalent. I think he has to at least be in the discussion.

rhickok1109 wrote:How did Jim Brown "revolutionize" the RB position?

By redefining what it is capable of and the extent to which a RB1 could define a team. SVB existed, but his best season hardly matched Jim's worst.

Youre right about Jim Brown for his time and even now but I believe Payton was dominant as well and more of a complete back who never had the supporting cast Brown had ...

So would you add something like Walter Payton (1985-1995)?

JameisLoseston wrote:SVB existed, but his best season hardly matched Jim's worst.

Jim existed, but his best playoff game hardly matched SVB's worst

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I think you also have to consider for a long time, the pro game wasn't that well respected, so in 1925, if you asked someone who the best ever football players were, you may get a list like this:

Jim Thorpe
Willie Heston
Walt Eckersall

Who knows, but point being there would most likely be players who made their name only in college - I'm not sure what year it changed, but in 1930 or 1935 or 1940 or whenever, 1920 wouldn't have been considered some type of magic date. You could go back further and mention Pudge Heffelfinger. Frank Hinkey has a following as well, but he never played in the pros. I like Friedman being on the list, but I don't think there was ever a point in time where that would have been a widely held view. I think he can only be included in hindsight which may partially explain why he's never in the conversation for much of anything like the 50, 75, or 100 year teams. Also, you aren't qualifying the unofficial statistics. For some people, its like pre-1932 never happened. Check PFR.

Walter Payton to me, is the greatest football player ever, though Rice may be the most dominant ...

If we're talking Head Coaches...Guy RULED the first decade of the NFL, thus making he the first of the 'GOAT' HCs! Perhaps the 'MVP' of the league as well during that period prior to Friedman? Guy also was the first of the three 3-peat NFL HCs, with yet a fourth title in '26 with the Yellow Jackets!

So when would you say that Curly "surpassed" him in the GOAT-department according to general consensus? '39 when he posted his 5th title? Or as early as '31 upon achieving his own three-peat? And how about Halas? Even though Curly was still ahead of him in League Championships at 6-5 following the '46 season, I imagine 'Papa Bear' could still have, now, been seen as the GOAT. And with Halas still fielding championship-caliber teams first half of the '50s as his nemesis dwindled off into retirement, that may have further increased such a 'lead' over him.

But then, that very first-half of decade, you had You-Know-Who making his Historic presence! Despite winning "just" his third NFL title in '55, would that have been enough for Paul Brown to now take the throne? But late-December back in '63, were there those who were saying something along the lines of..."You know what? You now got to give it to George Halas for 'best coach ever'! Here it is, more than 40 years in, he was there from the very beginning, and the game obviously hasn't passed him by! Still wins a Championship!"

My guess is that Vince a few years later ultimately then seizes his Status after his three-peat/winning SB I & II! Personally, I got Lombardi at ''#1'. But I wonder if it's because I actually feel that he IS the best NFL head coach ever (likely-enough, that should be the case), or because I'm afraid that the sacrilege-police will come and take me away? Paul Brown does have argument; and also Halas with those FORTY TWO YEARS between his first and his last League Championship!

And, yes, Belichick! IMO, both he and Brady together didn't start gaining ground on their current respective, at least arguable, GOAT statuses until after the ten-year title-drought they "suffered" between SBs XXXIX & XLIX. In the meantime, Hoodie was "competing" with the likes of Noll and Walsh, Brady of course with Peyton. But then came those four SBs in the following five years, winning three of them, and that's what catapulted Hoodie and Tom up with Lombardi and Montana respectively. And as for Joe Cool...I had him at #1 QB until very recently while still, today, feeling there's some he-vs-Brady debate left in the tank (still a chance I can change it back, never know)!

I've already given my 'Mt Rushmore' of QBs which seems to be the same as many. As for HCs...(in chrono-order)...Halas, Brown, Lombardi, Belichick.

I like Friedman being on the list, but I don't think there was ever a point in time where that would have been a widely held view. I think he can only be included in hindsight which may partially explain why he's never in the conversation for much of anything like the 50, 75, or 100 year teams. 

I get the exact same sense, and if anything, it only compounds his importance and heightens his mystique. What he did was so far beyond the understanding of football watchers at the time that they couldn't even make sense of what they were seeing (except Tim Mara, of course, he knew exactly what he was seeing), and it took the context of the development of the passing game for his pioneering contributions and dominance to come into clearer view. Of course, that is further obscured today by the nebulosity of pre-1932 stats; I noted that the passing/rushing league lead is a "maybe", but it should absolutely be recognized as an all-time great season even if he was 2nd or 3rd in rushing. He was and remains the most criminally underrated legend in NFL history. I don't sound as passionate about him as I do about some other guys because he's already (read: finally) in the HOF, but that is far from enough; he needs to be recognized as one of the very inner circle. Combining his versatility as a QB, which remains impressive today, and the fact that he brought something so innovative to the game that most observers couldn't even comprehend what was happening, I could make an argument that Baugh and Luckman never passed him as pure QBs, but I went with the two-way battle narrative instead.

I'll do a list of head coaches now, as suggested by 74...

1. Guy Chamberlin (1924-1931) - This era was dominated by player-coaches, but here I am only considering their contributions as a coach. I agree with 74's placement of Guy here, he really dominated the era of folding franchises and 7-0 games. I'd say he had convincingly become the GOAT here by 1924, his third consecutive championship (four if you count the "Staley Swindle", but of course, Papa Bear was the HC there). Multiple factors hold him back from more: unlike our next two candidates, he couldn't keep the Bulldogs from folding, he retired as a player and a coach at the same time, and he didn't work in the front office.

2-3. - This is a very close contest between whether Halas or Lambeau eclipsed Chamberlin first, exactly like Baugh and Luckman vying to pass Friedman. I don't think Chamberlin's resume is as challenging to overcome as Friedman's, because whereas Friedman had a tricky multifaceted game that his successors had to compete with from just a passing angle, Chamberlin's body of work is more one-dimensional than his contemporaries, who were also franchise architects and doubled as executives (unlike player-coaches, I will include this as an aspect of coaching resume). The Bears and Packers were both generally good throughout the latter 20s, but started to pull away and win titles in the 30s. Unlike Baugh and Luckman, I'm going to say both of them held it at different times. 2. Curly Lambeau (1931-1943) claimed it with his three-peat and held it through the 30s while the Hutson Packers were the dominant team, but when Sid Luckman came along, 3. George Halas (1943-1954) claimed his own three-peat, and Lambeau only won one more ring after that. Interestingly, Halas didn't seem to be the HC for 1943 when Luckman had his best season, but he was obviously in the front office, so I will give him half credit.

4. Paul Brown (1954-1966) - Like Otto Graham, I'd say Brown took the crown when the Browns started winning NFL titles, proving they had built a true dynasty. Reigning holder Halas was still going at this time, so it's a very close call, but no one to that point had displayed anything like the rapidity with which Brown constructed a historically great team. A franchise architect like Halas and Lambeau, except Brown built two different franchises. His Bengals tenure, however, while respectable, doesn't garner near as much plaudits as his time with the Browns, so it didn't prevent him from being surpassed by the next name on this list.

5. Vince Lombardi (1966-) - Super Bowl I feels like the perfect moment to say Lombardi had unquestionably become the GOAT. He built a contender immediately out of a terrible run of post-Lambeau 50s Packer teams, was probably the most consistent coach of all time, and won more and bigger in quick succession than even Brown, considering much of his dominance came in the AAFC. The main question is whether the franchise-building exploits of Lambeau, Halas, and Brown make up for the pure, simple excellence of Lombardi; Lombardi was also a team-builder, but it's hard to argue he was to an equal extent. I'll give him this spot, though, because it'd feel like a crime to say Vince Lombardi never made it onto a coaching GOAT list.
The other big question: was Lombardi ever surpassed until Belichick? Some of the undisputed greatest coaches ever came between them, but did they ever hold a spot on this list? If anyone were to, it would be either Don Shula or Tom Landry. I don't think Landry, who only won two titles and has basically 90 percent of Shula's resume, has much of a case to stand on. Shula is the all-time winningest NFL coach, but only has two SBs himself; he gets extra credit, however, for doing front office work and hence being responsible for the Dan Marino era, which is frankly terrible luck that it didn't result in at least a third ring. He's more comparable to Brown than to Lombardi, having built the Dolphins franchise from the ground up despite not being the owner. But there's no clear point at which it feels right for Shula to have exceeded either of them, so I'm going to conclude he didn't.

6. Bill Belichick (2016-present) - 28-3 did it. You can call it the Bill Belichick Trophy now. Admittedly, the Brady breakup saga and the following events in Tampa have taken a bit of the shine off his dominance, but Belichick also built the Tom Brady we know from a disorganized pile of unrealized, unrecognized ability. He is probably going to take Shula's wins record, and his winning percentage is the highest in that top tier. If he can rebuild the post-Brady Pats into a perennial playoff team again, this will be put beyond any shadow of remaining doubt.

Oh, and as for Mount Rushmores...

QBs: If I have to do four different eras, it's Friedman/Baugh, Graham, Unitas/Marino, Brady. I would prefer Friedman/Baugh, Graham, Manning, Brady. Deciding between Friedman and Baugh is very tough, given I'm not counting Baugh playing other positions; it's basically a question of peak versus longevity. All told, Baugh probably gets the spot.
HCs: I concur with 74's Halas-Brown-Lombardi-Belichick, and I'd be hard pressed to find someone who disagrees. Shula occupies a different era than any of them, so if we allow five heads, he's on there as well over Landry. Halas/Lambeau is the other closest one, but Papa Bear's 63 title wins out.

I still would have Paul Brown as GOAT coach. Lombardi was a master motivator, but he didn't build that team, and he wasn't the innovator that Brown was. Also, Belichick has been cheating for 20 years (that's why I also don't have Brady on any GOAT list. Jim Brown is still my GOAT player. Jerry Rice isn't even in my top-10. He is a product of the system to some degree, just like Montana was).