Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

I worked on this for another board and I thought some folks here may find it interesting.

The 18 player HOF team looks like this:

E: Chamberlin, Dilweg, Halas
T: Healey, Henry, Hubbard, Owen
G: Anderson, Kiesling, Michalske
C: Trafton
B: Conzelman, Driscoll, Grange, Guyon, Lambeau, Nevers, Thorpe

I overlapped with the HOF on 8 players [bolded], 6 of them starters (Note I would have Hubbard and Michalske as all-decade, but '30s rather than '20s):

E: Chamberlin, Dilweg
T: Healey, Henry
G: Jim McMillen, Swede Youngstrom
C: Trafton
B: Benny Friedman, Driscoll, Verne Lewellen, Tony Latone

Honorable Mention: Gus Sonnenberg, Al Nesser, Duke Slater, Lambeau, Nevers


Note 1. I think Nesser and Latone were hurt a bit on postseason honors because they were sandlot players and others were college. Similarly for Slater who was black. It was far from the only thing I used to include them, just noting it because I think all 3 are deserving and any argument against them should at least consider the possibility of contemporary bias.

Note. 2. Henry, Sonnenberg, and Latone had a hidden year with post-season honors as all were All-Anthracite in '24.

Note. 3. Sure you could flip Nevers and Latone, but that would essentially put 4 Tailbacks on the team whereas Latone played both wingback and fullback. I also like Latone as the 2nd Linebacker along with Trafton. Johnny Blood mentioned in Ralph's book that he excelled at that position. While history remembers Nevers as a FB, I think that was just because he played in the double-wing where there was no tailback. To me, he was essentially a tailback and likely did not play linebacker on defense.

Note 4. While I do believe that Lambeau probably made the HOF team because someone got lazy and pencilled in a bunch of coaches (Halas, Anderson. Kiesling, Conzelman, etc.), I actually believe Lambeau was worthy. Looking at the unofficial statistics and noting how many times he was among the leaders for either rushing or passing (Passing: '21, '22, '23, and '24; Rushing: '23 and '24) tipped the scales in his favor for me.

Note 5. Among my 16, 7 are not in the HOF. I think the centennial class would have been a good opportunity to get a few more of them inducted. At least Slater got in.

Note. 6. None of Sonnenberg, McMillen, nor Latone are in the HOVG. A few folks have told me to mention the players I think are worthy on the board, so while it's not the point of the post, I think these are 3 good players to vote for. Vote early and vote often

Let me know what you guys think.

TanksAndSpartans wrote:I worked on this for another board and I thought some folks here may find it interesting.
...

Note. 3. Sure you could flip Nevers and Latone, but that would essentially put 4 Tailbacks on the team whereas Latone played both wingback and fullback. I also like Latone as the 2nd Linebacker along with Trafton. Johnny Blood mentioned in Ralph's book that he excelled at that position. While history remembers Nevers as a FB, I think that was just because he played in the double-wing where there was no tailback. To me, he was essentially a tailback and likely did not play linebacker on defense.

...

You're exactly right about Nevers; his being called a fullback is simply an accident of terminology. Warner's teams always started out in the T-formation (which warner called "regular formation") and then almost always shifted into the single-wing, the double-wing, or the short punt formation. With the double-wing as he developed it at Stanford for Nevers, both halfbacks shifted to become wingbacks, leaving the fullback as the tailback, so he was the exact equivalent of the single-wing tailback, who was almost always the left halfback--again, simply because of the way they players shifted.

Thanks Ralph! I actually got that from you.

I remember first noticing the issue when I saw Nagurski and Nevers listed on someone’s all-time team at FB and thinking "hmm, those are two really different types of players". When you made the point about the double-wing in a different thread a while back, it clicked for me.

You did a better job than the PFHOF

Thanks @rewing84. To be fair, if the HOF made their team in the late ‘60s, they had a tough job. There was no PFRA to dig into newspaper archives, no internet, etc. I believe they surveyed old players, talked to people, etc. Not that surprising a subjective process got a lot wrong. Friedman for example wasn't well liked, maybe prejudice came into play too, at least he eventually got in, but really should have been inaugural class.

What I don’t give them a pass on is that by 2020, the info is all easy to get, and they still passed on Dilweg and Lewellen, for example.

TanksAndSpartans wrote:Lewellen,

Let me know what you guys think.

Like Lewellen a lot and others as well, but he kind of stands out as an error back then--the selected in 1969
and maybe they just didn't know that much or maybe
he missed out by a vote or two..don;t know what happened

JohnTurney wrote:

TanksAndSpartans wrote:Lewellen,

Let me know what you guys think.

Like Lewellen a lot and others as well, but he kind of stands out as an error back then--the selected in 1969
and maybe they just didn't know that much or maybe
he missed out by a vote or two..don;t know what happened

Thanks John. I agree on Lewellen. I noticed he's the lead on PFJ right now. A really good piece: https://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com

But I think Dilweg was just as bad of a miss for HOF (Interestingly, they did recognize him as all-decade). End was was a borderline skill position back then, a lot of what he excelled at wouldn't have been as appreciated as a back. He graded out as HOF on his scouting report too: http://www.kencrippen.com/Scouting-Repo ... LaVern.pdf. In my view, Dilweg, Lewellen, Friedman, and Slater all should have been inducted within the first few classes.

For HOVG, I like Latone, McMillen and Sonnenberg (I just realized he was a Tackle, so I made an edit above).

This is Ken's:
Ken had all of my first team, but some on his 2nd team. Here's the article:

https://www.si.com/nfl/talkoffame/nfl/r ... all-decade

Ken took on the added challenge of choosing backs to fit the single-wing. I tool an easier way out by just picking who I thought were the 4 most deserving backs. From a single-wing point of view, mine would be:

TB: Friedman
BB: Lumpkin
FB: Elliiot (stealing from Ken on this one, McBride a good choice as well)
WB: Latone

What are your thoughts on Ken picking Joe Guyon for his 2nd team? Seems like its almost a semantical argument...like how Mike Alstott would rack up pro bowl berths at the FB position. Was Guyon really one of the top 8 backs of the 1920s?

Guyon = 14 TDs scored, 3 TD passes, 13 XPs.

Nevers (3 seasons) = 24 TDs scored, 14 TD passes, 5 FGs, 28 XPs.