Fraternal organizations, Veterans organizations, and pros

[RyanChristiansen]

For a project I'm working on, I've been cruising the great Pro Football Archives web site, and I've noticed that in the early years of the NFL (APFA), that so many of the teams who competed "professionally," including in games against NFL/APFA opponents, appear to have been fraternal organizations or veterans organizations (Elks, Moose, Odds [Oddfellows], Eagles, and especially, American Legion or just Legion). In fact, the Racine Legion NFL team of 1922 appears to have been an American Legion team before they became an NFL franchise (I'm only guessing because of the name... maybe Legion was a popluar name, but I think it's more likely they were, in fact, spawned from an American Legion team). After reading Chris Serb's great book War Football, I think it would be great to know more the debt the NFL owes to fraternal and veterans organizations for its inception, perhaps even for providing an ecosystem to develop early professional football talent (as college fans continued to look down their noses at the pros), which probably rose out of the desire for servicemen to continue to play football after the service teams of World War I.

I have too many projects on my plate right now, but if someone wanted to pursue this angle, I think it could bear fruit.

Thoughts?

[rhickok1109]

For a project I'm working on, I've been cruising the great Pro Football Archives web site, and I've noticed that in the early years of the NFL (APFA), that so many of the teams who competed "professionally," including in games against NFL/APFA opponents, appear to have been fraternal organizations or veterans organizations (Elks, Moose, Odds [Oddfellows], Eagles, and especially, American Legion or just Legion). In fact, the Racine Legion NFL team of 1922 appears to have been an American Legion team before they became an NFL franchise (I'm only guessing because of the name... maybe Legion was a popluar name, but I think it's more likely they were, in fact, spawned from an American Legion team). After reading Chris Serb's great book War Football, I think it would be great to know more the debt the NFL owes to fraternal and veterans organizations for its inception, perhaps even for providing an ecosystem to develop early professional football talent (as college fans continued to look down their noses at the pros), which probably rose out of the desire for servicemen to continue to play football after the service teams of World War I.

I have too many projects on my plate right now, but if someone wanted to pursue this angle, I think it could bear fruit.

Thoughts?

The original name of the Racine Legion was the Horlick-Racine Legion because the team was co-sponsored by Bill Horlick, who owned the malted milk company based in Racine, and the local American Legion post.

[TanksAndSpartans]

@RyanChristiansen, definitely respect the thought, but in my opinion, the NFL didn't originate from fraternal and veterans organizations. The Canton Bulldogs, Massillon Tigers, Dayton Triangles, Fort Wayne Friars, Columbus Panhandles, Detroit Heralds, Hammond Clabbys/Bobcats/Pros, Pine Village A.C., Evanston North Ends, Wabash A.C., Cleveland Indians, Youngstown Patricians, etc. None of the teams I mentioned fit the description. I recommend Keith McClellan's book and the CC articles which cover the events leading up to the formation of the NFL. Not all the teams I mention made it to the NFL, but it was the competitive environment of the Ohio League that the NFL sprung from.

I don't know this player by player, but I feel like the 1917 pro season was pretty much played at full strength. Norb Sacksteder for example served in the Army from May, 1918 to February 1919. He even managed to play in a game in 1918, but it wasn't much of a season because of the Spanish Flu. The main Ohio League teams were right back at it in 1919.

[Bob Gill]

... I think it would be great to know more the debt the NFL owes to fraternal and veterans organizations for its inception, perhaps even for providing an ecosystem to develop early professional football talent (as college fans continued to look down their noses at the pros), which probably rose out of the desire for servicemen to continue to play football after the service teams of World War I.

I don't think World War I had anything much to do with the formation of the NFL. The 1919 season was nothing new: As TanksandSpartans points out, almost all of the teams (and players) of the 1919 Ohio League and the others that year were already playing in 1917. Bob Carroll, for one, thought a league might have been formed in 1918 if not for the war. If he was right, the war just delayed the formation of the NFL by a year or two.

[RyanChristiansen]

I don't think World War I had anything much to do with the formation of the NFL. The 1919 season was nothing new: As TanksandSpartans points out, almost all of the teams (and players) of the 1919 Ohio League and the others that year were already playing in 1917. Bob Carroll, for one, thought a league might have been formed in 1918 if not for the war. If he was right, the war just delayed the formation of the NFL by a year or two.

I don't think you can look at the league out of context and say that it would have succeeded no matter what was happening in the social fabric. If all of these fraternal organizations and veterans organizations hadn't been fielding teams, would there have been enough interest in non-college football for the league to survive? Chris Serb's "War Football" does a pretty good job of showing how organized football in World War I military camps helped to show fans that non-college organized football could be fun to watch, and it showed the players that there was life after college football. After the war, if all these soldiers had just gone home and worked their jobs and never picked up the football again, would they have paid much attention to non-college football?

[TanksAndSpartans]

If all of these fraternal organizations and veterans organizations hadn't been fielding teams, would there have been enough interest in non-college football for the league to survive?

Specifically which fraternal organizations and veterans organizations fielded significant teams? This is post 1920?

Chris Serb's "War Football" does a pretty good job of showing how organized football in World War I military camps helped to show fans that non-college organized football could be fun to watch, and it showed the players that there was life after college football. After the war, if all these soldiers had just gone home and worked their jobs and never picked up the football again, would they have paid much attention to non-college football?

Fans/the general public weren't watching games at military camps were they? Do mean the fans of a team like Great Lakes?

[RyanChristiansen]

If all of these fraternal organizations and veterans organizations hadn't been fielding teams, would there have been enough interest in non-college football for the league to survive?

Specifically which fraternal organizations and veterans organizations fielded significant teams? This is post 1920?

Chris Serb's "War Football" does a pretty good job of showing how organized football in World War I military camps helped to show fans that non-college organized football could be fun to watch, and it showed the players that there was life after college football. After the war, if all these soldiers had just gone home and worked their jobs and never picked up the football again, would they have paid much attention to non-college football?

Fans/the general public weren't watching games at military camps were they? Do mean the fans of a team like Great Lakes?

1918 Rose Bowl - both military teams

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_Rose_Bowl

Like I’ve said, the American Legion is a vets organization and their posts fielded dozens of teams after the war, some of which played NFL teams or in the same circuits, and the Racine Legion NFL team grew out of an American Legion post. There were other fraternal organizations fielding teams, too, like the Eagles, Elks, Moose, Oddfellows, etc,

[TanksAndSpartans]

I don't think football fans or much of anyone would equate the Rose Bowl with pro football. I actually think the 1919 Rose Bowl was more interesting from a pro football point of view though since the Great Lakes team had some pro stars. I suspect the the perception was more of one that the pros were being given an eligibility exemption due to their military service more than that the Great Lakes team was a pro team.

I never said American Legion and other fraternal sponsored teams didn't exist. I've often seen programs for sale of postseason NFL barnstorming teams playing those types of teams. I just don't think they were historically significant.

[RyanChristiansen]

I don't think football fans or much of anyone would equate the Rose Bowl with pro football. I actually think the 1919 Rose Bowl was more interesting from a pro football point of view though since the Great Lakes team had some pro stars. I suspect the the perception was more of one that the pros were being given an eligibility exemption due to their military service more than that the Great Lakes team was a pro team.

I never said American Legion and other fraternal sponsored teams didn't exist. I've often seen programs for sale of postseason NFL barnstorming teams playing those types of teams. I just don't think they were historically significant.

You had asked if people were watching military football, and I used the Rose Bowl as an example for how, yes, people were paying attention to military football.

No, the fraternal/veterans organization teams were not significant individually. I'm arguing that as a collective they helped to make the ground fertile for the success of pro football, not on their own, of course, but as an important ingredient because they were an extension of the military teams, which is where future Pro Football Hall of Famers like Halas, Driscoll, Conzelman, and many others played before they played in the pros.

[TanksAndSpartans]

I've always been interested in that Great Lakes team, I'd like to pick up Chris Serb's book at some point. During the war, my thought would be that the military teams were associated with amateur/college football and I didn't see it as something that would have had a positive effect on pro football popularity. Driscoll for example played in the Ohio League both before and after Great Lakes. Did folks turn out to see his pro games after seeing him in the Rose Bowl? It's an interesting angle.

I would tend to think that the cause/effect of American Legion type teams is more along the lines that pro football was popular enough that a fraternal organization could sponsor a team likely without many/any big stars and still draw enough fans not to take a loss. Seems like an uphill argument to say that it worked the other way and that those teams helped popularize pro football.