Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

The QB list is going to very controversial. I think that due to folks not taking into consideration difference in era, and all of the fantasy football numbers that are on the brain nowadays, people are going to groan if someone like Rodgers or Brees doesn't make it to one of the final ten slots. The real finalist list will come out in a couple of days. These are my guesses for it though:

Baugh (on 75th year team)
Unitas (on 75th year team)
Graham (on 75th year team)
Montana (on 75th year team)
Van Brocklin
Aikman
Dawson
Tarkenton
Namath
Moon
Fouts
Kelly
Luckman
Jurgensen
Starr
Staubach
Bradshaw
Elway
Marino
Young
Farve
Manning
Brady
Brees
Rodgers

There might be more finalists, but even with just those guys, it's going to be hard to narrow it down. Which seven would you kick off just from here? I'm thinking the final ten are: Unitas, Baugh, Graham, Montana, Brady, Manning, Marino, Brees, Starr, and Staubach. If I had one more spot after that I'd probably put Van Brocklin on there. Or maybe Dawson.

Ness wrote: I'm thinking the final ten are: Unitas, Baugh, Graham, Montana, Brady, Manning, Marino, Brees, Starr, and Staubach. If I had one more spot after that I'd probably put Van Brocklin on there. Or maybe Dawson.

I would go with Elway instead of Marino. Elway basically carried three teams on his back to the Super Bowl in the 80's, even though they lost all three times. I think, until Terrell Davis entered the pictire, Elway was more successful than Marino with less overall talent around him. I think if Marino had wound up in Denver and Elway in Miami in 1983, I think there would be little doubt who the better QB was and it would have been Elway.

Rupert Patrick wrote:

Ness wrote: I'm thinking the final ten are: Unitas, Baugh, Graham, Montana, Brady, Manning, Marino, Brees, Starr, and Staubach. If I had one more spot after that I'd probably put Van Brocklin on there. Or maybe Dawson.

I would go with Elway instead of Marino. Elway basically carried three teams on his back to the Super Bowl in the 80's, even though they lost all three times. I think, until Terrell Davis entered the pictire, Elway was more successful than Marino with less overall talent around him. I think if Marino had wound up in Denver and Elway in Miami in 1983, I think there would be little doubt who the better QB was and it would have been Elway.

Just a note: Elway may have carried the 1986 and 1987 teams on his back, but the 1989 Broncos had the best defense in the league. They were third in yards, second in turnovers, and #1 in points, first downs, and touchdown passes. It's easy to forget after the shellacking in the Super Bowl, but that doesn't change what they did during the year.

conace21 wrote:Just a note: Elway may have carried the 1986 and 1987 teams on his back, but the 1989 Broncos had the best defense in the league. They were third in yards, second in turnovers, and #1 in points, first downs, and touchdown passes. It's easy to forget after the shellacking in the Super Bowl, but that doesn't change what they did during the year.

The Killer Bs that helped Miami to the SB in '82 had pretty much aged out by the time Marino got there. He played with some really horrible defenses. I don't have a strong opinion of him v. Elway one way or another, but I don't think Marino had more talent around him.

TanksAndSpartans wrote:

conace21 wrote:Just a note: Elway may have carried the 1986 and 1987 teams on his back, but the 1989 Broncos had the best defense in the league. They were third in yards, second in turnovers, and #1 in points, first downs, and touchdown passes. It's easy to forget after the shellacking in the Super Bowl, but that doesn't change what they did during the year.

The Killer Bs that helped Miami to the SB in '82 had pretty much aged out by the time Marino got there. He played with some really horrible defenses. I don't have a strong opinion of him v. Elway one way or another, but I don't think Marino had more talent around him.

Marino generally had better receivers, and his offensive line was generally better than Denver's, at least until 1995. Marino's sack percentage (or the lack thereof) was extraordinary, considering his general lack of mobility, but he did have a quick release. Elway was sacked almost twice as often as Marino (516 to 270) despite the fact Marino threw over 1000 more passes in his career.

If I had to win one game, and could choose Marino at his best or Elway at his best, it would be close, but I would choose John Elway. However, if Marino makes the top 100 and Elway doesn't, I would not be disappointed.

Aikman over Friedman. AIKMAN. In the immortal words of Stephen A. Smith, these dudes are bona-fide scrubs! Screw them all and screw their team.

Picks: Baugh, Graham, Unitas, Tarkenton, Staubach, Montana, Marino, Favre, Manning, Brady. Elway > Marino is almost as delusional as Aikman > Friedman, Elway was rarely even a top 5 QB. The Ben Roethlisberger of his day. Starr ain't getting in if they have sense either, dude was terribly inconsistent. I know they're going to pick some overrated piece of mediocrity like this though, because they're terrible, God bless em.

Jameis, I have no problem with your picks, and I certainly hope you’re right about Sir Francis making the team, but what on earth do you base your critique of Bart Starr on?

If I haven't mentioned this already on a post, I do think I should reconsider my historic take on Elway. No, not saying 'Rushmore' but should consider that old thread (paraphrasing) 'if you can build a team from scratch, what three players would you build around?' I believe I chose Deacon, OJ, and Montana. Great choices! But perhaps I should have installed Brown or Motley instead at RB. Deacon? Maybe replace him with another defense stalwart, maybe simply keep him there. As for the QB...maybe I should have picked #7!

No, I still see 'Cool' as the overall better QB thus rock-solid (no pun) 'Rushmore'-member. Elway, as great as he still would have been (yes, winning Rings in the '80s) in such a hypothetical, would not have been able to pilot the 'West Coast' machine had it been at his disposal quite as well as Joe did (who could have?). However, I feel Elway with his raw athletic ability (especially ability to extend plays/run out the pocket for a big gain if need be) could have carried a less-than-mediocre/bad team on his back better than perhaps any QB who ever played the game, thus forging more victories than the team may have mustered otherwise.

The only below-500 teams Elway ever played on were in 1990 (5-11) and 1994 (7-9, lost last three). Imagine how much more had Elway not been under center?? He did have solid players on both offense and defense in the '80s. The entire defense reached its '80s apex in 1989 along with Humphrey giving the run-game a needed boost. And Dan Reeves was a great HC! Slam-dunk HOVG/borderline-HOFer at very least. Four SB-berths is four SB-berths! Was his apparent conservative style his SB-undoing? He not letting John "run wild"? I leaned heavy toward that not long ago, but not so sure now. Perhaps if he "took the leash off" of Elway, perhaps those teams would have been even-less-balanced thus maybe not making all three of those SBs in the first place. We'll never know for sure, I guess.

Maybe it was simply a case of those three teams (like other AFC SB-'victims' during that stretch) simply not having "enough" once they got to the Big Game! If it wasn't one thing, or two, lacking (that could be exposed for all-the-marbles vs an '80s NFC Superpower) it would be another thing, or two, (that could be exposed for all-the-marbles vs an '80s NFC Superpower). Though many a mid-'80s-thru-early-'90s AFC contender - like Denver themselves - at least competed well vs NFC contenders during the regular season, the Super Bowl during that time was simply a case of the NFC champ upping their game even-more once the playoffs began, and then being even-better than that (bringing their complete A-game) on Super Sunday. Yes, giving them much better games would have been nice, but we ARE talking Tuna's G-men, Gibbs' Redskins, and...the '89 Forty Niners!! Three squads that simply were at their absolute best in each SB event!

Just the same, John finally got that top-notch running game (even better than '89 Humphrey; much better) and that (even better than '89, noticeably better) stout defense that just about all teams need in order to win-it-all. And though he remained a big vital playmaker (very clearly no 'passenger'), he also - at the same time - 'stepped back' just a tad and let all-else get in on the act as well; and we know the rest!

JohnH19 wrote:Jameis, I have no problem with your picks, and I certainly hope you’re right about Sir Francis making the team, but what on earth do you base your critique of Bart Starr on?

On Starr - He is renowned for his efficiency, high completion percentage and low turnovers, particularly the 3 INT season. But it was too erratic for my taste. There were plenty of years where his efficiency was below league average... like the year after the 3 INT season! And for as little as he threw even for his time, by God, I'd practically expect him to be ultra-efficient. We are not talking about Drew Brees here. If he actually gave himself a little workload, I'd expect that efficiency to crash and burn. For as much as this is lauded, his TD/INT is still barely above water. Only 1 All-Pro, which I don't typically like to cite but it is reflective of the resume here. I have nothing against him as a nominee but he has no business being anywhere near the top 10. Oh, but he won a lot of championships! Okay. He was like the 8th best player on his team. Jim Taylor, the best player on that offense, isn't getting in without a ticket.

On Elway - my take on him remains, the Ben Roethlisberger of his era. 90s QBs closest comps to modern ones:

Montana - Brady
Young - Rodgers
Marino - Brees
Elway - Roethlisberger
Aikman - Eli

And God knows I'm not supporting the last two for HOF! I think Elway is better than Roethlisberger and a worthy outer-circle HOFer (Aikman shouldn't be in, and nor should Eli goddamn Manning), but nonetheless, his whole career is nothing but a long string of average to above average, just like Ben's. It was a tale of two careers for Elway, actually, one in which he was honestly kinda crap and another where he finally realized his potential. In the 80s, he was as average as average gets. There is nothing interesting to say about this guy when Marino was out dumping all over the league. In 1991, it would be fair to say he was a BUST as the #1 pick in 83, yeah, I said it. Then in 92 he went out and looked flat out done, cooked, finished at age 32. But miraculously, he bounced back and became a well above average QB for the last 6 years of his career, although he was still never any kind of dominant force, reflected in the zero, count em, career All-Pros. Like poor old dead-armed 2015 Peyton Manning, he finally got a great team around him and won Super Bowls his last two years, although in his case he certainly had a lot left. Overall, this is a good career and a great story for sure, but if those 6 years and 2 SBs had been his first 6 years, he might not have made the HOF. This is a resume running on narrative fumes. And you're all trying to convince me he's more deserving than Dan Marino?! The utter blasphemy.

74_75_78_79_ wrote: 'if you can build a team from scratch, what three players would you build around?'

Lawrence Taylor, Jim Brown and Jerry Rice.