All-Time Two Way Team

[TanksAndSpartans]

Some great discussion in the other thread. John Turney suggested having a separate two-way team and @Reaser said it could have been fit into the top 100. Either way, I think it would have allowed for some recognition of the earlier players. I put together a version - I thought of 11, but I allowed it to go to 22 and there were still some tough cuts. Let me know what you think or post your own:

E: Chamberlin ('65), Hewitt ('71)
T: Hubbard ('63), Edwards ('69)
G: Michalske ('64), Emerson
C: Hein ('63), Turner ('66)
G: Fortmann ('65), Youngstrom
T: Healey ('64), Henry ('63)
E: Hutson ('63), Dilweg
QB: Baugh ('63), Friedman ('05)
FB: Nagurski ('63), Hinkle ('64)
HB: Thorpe ('63), Clark ('63), Driscoll ('65), Blood ('63)

[Bob Gill]

Actually, I believe Clark was always listed as a quarterback. But at the same time, Baugh was almost always listed as a halfback (through 1943), so you could just switch them and that would still work. With Thorpe, of course, he only works if you include pre-NFL seasons -- which I'd do myself, but I know some would object to that.

In general, though, I agree with just about all of your picks. But I might have to bump Nagurski or (more likely) HInkle to get Nevers on there. And although I love Benny Friedman, I could be persuaded to drop him in favor of Sid Luckman. Off the top of my head, I think those are the only two positions where I might pick somebody else.

[JohnTurney]

All-Pre-WWII Team
Position
Mel Hein —C — George Trafton
Danny Fortmann — G — Ox Emerson
Mike Michalske —G — Joe Kopcha
Cal Hubbard —T — Link Lyman
Pete Henry — T — Turk Edwards
Don Hutson — E — Bill Hewitt
Guy Chamberlin — E — Ray Flaherty
Sammy Baugh — QB-T — Sid Luckman
Paddy Driscoll  —QB-SW — Arnie Herber
Father Lumpkin —BB — Larry Craig
Bronko Nagurski — FB — Clark Hinkle
Dutch Clark — HB — Vern Lewellen
Ward Cuff — K — Jack Manders
Sammy Baugh — P — Verne Lewellen
Curly Oden —PR — “Two-Bits” Homan
George McAfee —KR — Hinkey Haines
Dutch Clark — Drop Kicker — Paddy Driscoll
Red Grange — Def. — Al Nesser
Guy Chamberlin — Player/Coach — George Halas and Curly Lambeau (tie)

[JameisLoseston]

Great team! The knock on Sid Luckman here is that he wasn't much to speak of besides a quarterback, and was an all-time pocket statue; Friedman was not only the best passing QB of his era but remains one of the best running QBs of all time (this fact is criminally overlooked), and seemed to be better on D than Luckman as well. Luckman did a lot to codify the pure dropback passer mold that followed him, but that wasn't really what was optimal back then. In that vein, though, I might include more 40s guys than are on this team, it seems to be focused on 20s and 30s. Not an expert on the OL (although who alive today truly is?!), so I'll leave that for others to critique.

Here's my attempt (1st team / 2nd team)

SE: Hutson / Benton
TE: Pihos / Dilweg (Hewitt if Pihos doesn't count)
T: Hubbard, Henry / idk
G: Fortmann, Michalske / idk
C: Hein / idk
QB: Baugh / Friedman (tempted to put Friedman 1st though)
FB: Nevers / Bronko
HB: Blood, Clark / Lewellen, Battles (I like touchdowns)

[TanksAndSpartans]

The 40s are tricky. During the war, the talent level took a hit and there were multiple rule changes regarding substitutions, so I definitely went heavier on the 20s and 30s to make sure I got true two-way players. I like Bulldog Turner though - I originally had Trafton, but replaced him.

I agree the lineman are tough. I was close on Slater, Link Lyman, Al Nesser - some tough cuts.

Love Father Lumpkin and “Two-Bits” Homan on the Willis team. To keep it at 22, I pretty much skipped the BB position. In the Spartans game film I saw, Lumpkin actually moved to FB when he carried the ball and lined up at BB to lead block for TB Clark or FB Cavosie so it could be dynamic. And with Baugh as the TB, Battles was technically a FB. So I could have called Nagurski and Hinkle BBs if I wanted to use the single-wing as my basis. What I wound up doing was a T formation lineup with 5 tailbacks. I called the two best passing tailbacks QBs and the other 3 HBs. I think the T is better to use as a basis - with the s-w, you would not only have to name a BB, but a WB too. I'm pretty sure none of the players mentioned played WB. Latone was a good WB and Ernie Caddel off the top of my head.

[Bob Gill]

The 40s are tricky. During the war, the talent level took a hit and there were multiple rule changes regarding substitutions, so I definitely went heavier on the 20s and 30s to make sure I got true two-way players. I like Bulldog Turner though - I originally had Trafton, but replaced him.

I agree the lineman are tough. I was close on Slater, Link Lyman, Al Nesser - some tough cuts.

Love Father Lumpkin and “Two-Bits” Homan on the Willis team. To keep it at 22, I pretty much skipped the BB position. In the Spartans game film I saw, Lumpkin actually moved to FB when he carried the ball and lined up at BB to lead block for TB Clark or FB Cavosie so it could be dynamic. And with Baugh as the TB, Battles was technically a FB. So I could have called Nagurski and Hinkle BBs if I wanted to use the single-wing as my basis. What I wound up doing was a T formation lineup with 5 tailbacks. I called the two best passing tailbacks QBs and the other 3 HBs. I think the T is better to use as a basis - with the s-w, you would not only have to name a BB, but a WB too. I'm pretty sure none of the players mentioned played WB. Latone was a good WB and Ernie Caddel off the top of my head.

I'd guess that Blood played a good bit of wingback. For the most part he didn't seem to run the ball much, but he was a great receiver. That sounds like a wingback to me.

I think you're right about Turner and Trafton; it seems to me that Turner is an easy choice there. As for the linemen, I'd certainly consider Slater, and also George Christensen. But it's hard to make comparisons from this distance.

By the way, one thing about the Chris Willis team: To me, it doesn't make sense to name all those specialists to a pre-WWII team, since they didn't exist in those days. I mean, it's not like the Giants sent in Hinkey Haines every time the other team was about to punt ...

[TanksAndSpartans]

Good point on Blood as WB. I think the T gives the most flexibility in choosing the best players though. Presnell had to play WB or FB when Clark was on the field for example. I think the s-w could work fine with the 8 backs I chose - players may just have to take turns

[JuggernautJ]

One of the things I don't hear mentioned when discussing "All-Time" teams (and this probably applies more to the pre-WWII guys than the "100 in 100" team) is the charter class of the Hall of Fame.

In my opinion being a charter member is perhaps more prestigious than a unanimous or first-ballot selection.

These are the guys who, chosen by (some of) their peers (and in a time much closer to the fact then ours) were deemed to be the elite of that early era. So when I see that Johnny Blood, Jim Thorpe, Red Grange, Dutch Clark and Fats Henry were judged most worthy of being the first to be honored in the Hall I take that as a big sign they were among the very best of the best.

Maybe we can't establish all the stats of Thorpe or Grange (not to mention Henry...) but the fact that they were so honored tells me a lot about how they were viewed by their contemporaries.

[TanksAndSpartans]

That’s a fair point about the charter class, but there’s some evidence they were a bit stingy on the 20s and 30s in the '60s. I updated my first post to indicate year inducted. Most got in in the 60s. I left Blood and Nevers out from the first class, but I could see having both in. Others mentioned both. I think Grange was a solid HOF choice, maybe just a notch below all-time two-way. I believe players who played primarily for defunct teams were at somewhat of a disadvantage. Friedman wasn’t well liked and was excluded for decades. I think the 20s was fuzzy even in the ’60s. Slater was considered. Latone was considered, but even someone like Dr. Z said he had no idea who Latone was. I think Dilweg, Emerson, and Youngstrom were just misses.

[JohnTurney]

By the way, one thing about the Chris Willis team: To me, it doesn't make sense to name all those specialists to a pre-WWII team, since they didn't exist in those days. I mean, it's not like the Giants sent in Hinkey Haines every time the other team was about to punt ...

I am sure Chris knew that they were not "specialists" as we think of them now. I think the intent was to shed light as to who the guys were that stood out at returns or kicking, etc. Like if someone picked Sammy Baugh as an All-time punter--when he was on plenty of people's all-time team, not suggesting he was a specialists, but that he was the best punter. I think that is all that is.