Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

I am curious as to how the board feels about where each player would stand if some of you ranked the finalists at each position, starting with the RBs, and I thought I'd make some threads...

Also, I was wondering if some of you could include a Top 5 list of greats who were snubbed...

I thought this was a pretty good list overall. A good mix of all eras, but I think the biggest ‘snubs’ would be switching out some of the old-time guys. McElhenny was a unique runner who really was ‘poetry in motion’, but I’d switch him out with Joe Perry. I get Red Grange being on the list, but as a RB he wasn’t better than guys like Cliff Battles or Ernie Nevers. I always thought of Dutch Clark was a single-wing TB/QB, and I would replace him with Clarke Hinkle. Of the more ‘modern’ guys, I thought Leroy Kelly and Larry Csonka were remarkable and their stats don’t really sum up their careers. I loved Edgerrin James, too.
So I guess my top 5 snubs would be Perry, Hinkle, Battles, James & Csonka. But even then you are kind of just swapping bottom-of-the-list guys for different bottom-of-the-list guys.
Very difficult to rank these guys because you have a couple different variables…peak vs. career value, and running vs. overall value. Barry Sanders had a season with 1883 yards/5.7 YPC and never fumbled, but people could say he wasn’t much of a blocker. Marcus Allen from 1982-1985 was an all-around monster, from 1986 on he was an all-around durable RB. Give me 1985 Marcus Allen over most of the guys on the list, but from a career standpoint its hard to “rank” Allen above a guy like Emmitt Smith. But since we all love rankings!

24 – Red Grange – just sayin

23 – Hugh McEllhenny – would be like ranking Mariano Rivera above Tom Seaver

22- Jerome Bettis – no

21 – Dutch Clark – maybe a copout on my part, but he shouldn’t be in this group

20 – Franco Harris – really liked him, consistent, but his peak was 1972 and then he was hurt in 73 and never ran the same.

19 – Bronko Nagurski – hard to rank 2-way guys

18 – Marion Motley - high peak/not as impressive career

17 – Marcus Allen - ditto

16 – Lenny Moore – really hard to rank him. Beautiful to watch. Maybe I have him too low, but I think it says something that he was included on this list at all.

15 – Adrian Peterson – tough runner, fumbled at inopportune times, honestly thought he’d be ‘better’

14 – Earl Campbell – had a pretty mediocre supporting cast, which probably affected his big game stats

13 – Thurman Thomas – perhaps I have him too high, but I remember him just being super productive

12 – Jim Taylor – really the heart of that Packers team

11 – Tony Dorsett – so tough for a little guy, underrated IMO

10 – Gale Sayers – had to put him in top 10. Unique.

9 – Eric Dickerson – almost unequalled as ‘pure runner’, fumbles, tho

8 – LaDainian Tomlinson – production

7 – Marshall Faulk – he and Moore best receiving backs

6 – Steve Van Buren – ahead of his time in terms of one RB dominance

5 – OJ Simpson – just from watching him, I could put him at #2.

4 – Emmitt Smith – perhaps most durable athlete in pro sports history

3 - Barry Sanders – genius with the ball

2 – Walter Payton – passes any type of ‘eye test’

1 – Jim Brown - tops

I wonder how much consideration Doak Walker received. Short career, but he really pops on film. Dont know if he'd supplant any of the top 24, but I have always liked him.

JeffreyMiller wrote:I wonder how much consideration Doak Walker received. Short career, but he really pops on film. Dont know if he'd supplant any of the top 24, but I have always liked him.

I think I've seen some of that same footage . Another one I like from watching the 50s is Deacon Dan Towler - I feel like I could drop him into the NFL this year and he'd do fine. In terms of watching those weekly highlight shows, I don't look forward to the Lions the same way I do the 49ers and Rams though - maybe just my own bias, but those two offenses are just really fun to watch (Not a dig at the Lions, Walker, Hunchy, Layne in the 2 min drill, were all great, etc., just not the same wow factor). I suspect a lot of folks think McElhenny was a stretch and don't see Perry's omission as a big deal, but I find them really fun to watch - they blocked for each other, caught the ball, McElhenny split out as a receiver at times and returned punts, great stuff.

JeffreyMiller wrote:I wonder how much consideration Doak Walker received. Short career, but he really pops on film. Dont know if he'd supplant any of the top 24, but I have always liked him.

Probably not much, due to being on mostly the wrong end of a timeshare with Hunchy. I'm honestly quite surprised he got into the HOF; he was definitely a good enough player in a vacuum, but the actual production doesn't stack up. He played a role in developing the receiving back, though; that may have been a factor.

Ranking the RBs:

24: Jerome Bettis - bunch of better modern era guys to nominate. Curtis Martin, Edgerrin James, Priest Holmes...
23: Red Grange - I can see this, and he actually did have three great seasons, but there are better early picks. Ernie Nevers, Cliff Battles, Jim Thorpe...
22: Hugh McElhenny - definitely should have been Perry here instead, but he's higher because, well, I can't name 3+ guys in the same era I'd rather have.
21: Franco Harris - never really one of the best backs in the league except one or two years. If not for the Immaculate Reception he wouldn't be here.
20: Bronko Nagurski - hard to evaluate him because no one alive knows how good he was on defense. Only the 3rd or 4th best RB in the league most years.
19: Marcus Allen - agree, short peak and long career as a role player, although I'd argue misuse was a heavy factor.
18: Earl Campbell - great pure runner, just too brittle and didn't catch the ball.
17: Thurman Thomas - undeniably productive, but also undeniably the third best back of his era.
16: Dutch Clark - I think RB is the right position for him, he didn't throw the ball much. He's also the best of the early picks here, so him getting on is fine.
15: Tony Dorsett - best back of the 70s? Quite possibly, but the 70s were a huge desert for NFL offense in general.
14: Gale Sayers - Special player for sure. Just have a hard time ranking him over guys from the same era who played twice as long.
13: Jim Taylor - Easily the 2nd best RB of the early 60s, but another one with a short peak, if not quite as short as Sayers. Only outran Brown one year.
12: Marshall Faulk - the late 90s and early 2000s were the golden age of the NFL RB, and that might have actually worked against its candidates here. So many were so good that they drowned each other out.
11: Lenny Moore - almost as good as Faulk in an era where no one had ever done it before. Total production far outstrips Taylor. Very underrated player.
10: Marion Motley - his stats don't pop and his career was short, but he was a very unique player in that he embodied the modern notion of a blocking FB yet was one of the best rushers in the league as well. Lorenzo Neal and, say, Bettis wrapped into one player.
9: Adrian Peterson - The undisputed best RB of the 2010s, and even if it has been a down era for rushing, I think his clear superiority puts him in the top 10.
8: Eric Dickerson - best RB of the early 80s and possibly the best pure runner of all time. Injury hampered, but dominant.
7: LaDainian Tomlinson - his 2006 is an undisputed top 3 NFL season of all time at any position. He could have done anything on a football field that year. Rest of his career is no joke either.
6: Steve Van Buren - Jim Brown before Jim Brown, every bit as far above other (NFL) RBs of the late 40s as Brown was in his era. Again, injuries. They suck.
5: OJ Simpson - Another short peak, but far exceeded those of Sayers and Taylor, and even SVB. Those who say he didn't catch the ball enough should pay more attention to 75 and not just 73. Only people he murdered is NFL linebackers, over and over.
T2: Emmitt Smith - can't separate these next three. Emmitt has the career rushing records by enough of a margin that I think he's highly underrated. Not Jerry Rice untouchable, but they'll stand until the inevitable 18 game seasons.
T2: Walter Payton - so elite for so long, and so versatile too. Nothing he couldn't do, even fill in at QB! Only problem with his resume is that he never led the league in anything after 1977, but his receiving work made up for that.
T2: Barry Sanders - never mind about Dickerson, here's the best pure runner ever. Just unstoppable, and could have run for 20,000 yards if he played for someone besides the Lions.
1: Jim Brown - GOAT. If you're bothered by Payton's lack of black numbers, go have a look at Jim Brown's card and cleanse your soul.

Edit: snubs - Joe Perry is obviously one. I'd say Curtis Martin would be firmly ahead of Bettis on my modern list; I love Priest Holmes but I get how others aren't convinced, so I'll rest that case. Ditto for Battles, who hardly anyone has heard of anymore, so I'll go with Nevers as the biggest early snub, he is still reasonably famous and many who played with him thought he was the best they'd ever seen. Leroy Kelly honestly makes one wonder how much of Jim Brown was Jim Brown and how much was THE Browns; as Brown's successor, Kelly was almost as good as him for a few years before injuries got him. Due to that system RB concern, though, not sure how big.a snub he really is. Perry is the only one that I'd say is really glaring; he really could have made the top 12, whereas Clark is still beating Nevers and if fricking LT didn't make it, Martin has zero chance.

JameisLoseston wrote:15: Tony Dorsett - best back of the 70s? Quite possibly

I can't figure out what this is in reference to. Best RB who was drafted in the 70's? Best RB who played part of his career in the 70's? Best NCAA RB of the 70's? Either way, it doesn't make sense.

JameisLoseston wrote: 13: Jim Taylor - Easily the 2nd best RB of the early 60s, but another one with a short peak, if not quite as short as Sayers. Only outran Brown one year.

The Sayers comp and 'short peak' references are lost on me. Taylor was the first RB in NFL history to have 5 straight 1000-yard seasons. Even the swipe about outrunning Jim Brown "only one year" is wonky...Taylor is the only RB to have accomplished the feat. It would be like having a best heavyweight listing and commenting that Joe Frazier "only beat Ali once".

JameisLoseston wrote: 11: Lenny Moore - almost as good as Faulk in an era where no one had ever done it before. Total production far outstrips Taylor.

Again, not sure of the references. "In an era where no one had ever done it before"...what is "it"? McEllhenny and Matson would line up as flankers. Frank Gifford's 1956 season saw him place in the top 5 in both rushing and receiving, which I don't think anyone has done since. If anything, more RBs did 'it' in Moore's era than in any subsequent eras.

Another swipe at Taylor with the 'far outstrips' comment...Taylor 10353 scrimmage yards and 93 TDs in 10 seasons (with an additional 645 postseason yards)...Moore 11213 scrimmage yards and 111 TDs in 12 seasons (with an additional 350 postseason yards). If we include returns, of which the vast majority was Moore's final two seasons as a nominal KR, it still doesn't move the bar that much....Taylor 10539 APY and Moore with 12451 APY, roughly 1000 APY/season. I guess I'm not seeing the huge production gap that you are seeing, and Taylor was more productive on a seasonal basis.