First pure kicker and punter?

[Rupert Patrick]

Was Ben Agajanian the first pure kicker? I mean the first kicker who didn't play a regular position, like Lou Groza was also a lineman or George Blanda was also a QB.

How about the first pure punter? I worked my way back to Dick Deschaine of Green Bay and Cleveland from 1955-58 and could not find an earlier one. In this category, I would allow an occasional field goal as a punter would have to serve as an emergency kicker if the kicker was injured, and a punter will sometimes fake the punt and run or pass, so there might be a n occasional run or pass on his record. Bobby Joe Green (who began his career in 1960) was the first pure punter who had a long career.

[JohnTurney]

I thought Ben A was, but could be wrong...

[rhickok1109]

Was Ben Agajanian the first pure kicker? I mean the first kicker who didn't play a regular position, like Lou Groza was also a lineman or George Blanda was also a QB.

How about the first pure punter? I worked my way back to Dick Deschaine of Green Bay and Cleveland from 1955-58 and could not find an earlier one. In this category, I would allow an occasional field goal as a punter would have to serve as an emergency kicker if the kicker was injured, and a punter will sometimes fake the punt and run or pass, so there might be a n occasional run or pass on his record. Bobby Joe Green (who began his career in 1960) was the first pure punter who had a long career.

Mose Kelsch, who joined the Pittsburgh Pirates (now the Steelers) in 1933, was signed entirely for his kicking ability and he was put it into the game only when the team needed a kicker. Because of the substitution rules of the time, he did have to stay in the game at times and he very occasionally carried the ball, but there's no question that it was his kicking that got him the roster spot. (At 35, he was probably the oldest rookie in NFL history.)

[Rupert Patrick]

I thought Ben A was, but could be wrong...

After reading Ralph's post, how did Agajanian get around the substitution rules without playing a second position from 1945-49? The NFL did not have free substitution until 1950, but I'm not sure about the AAFC. And what about the NFL in 1945?

[Jay Z]

Did Ken Strong play a position when he came out of retirement?

[TanksAndSpartans]

I read something in an article about Strong - the jist of it was he wanted to show his son what he used to do on the field, but when he got his opportunity to carry the ball, it was a disaster - hit immediately and may have fumbled, so I would say no, he wasn't a position player when he came back to kick.

With regard to substitution, there was some free substitution in the '40s. I mentioned it in an old thread because I had read in Joe Ziemba's Cardinals book Goldberg was a specialist which surprised me:

Somewhere between the war and 1950, I'm pretty sure they dropped the rule that a player who came out of a game couldn't return until the next quarter, and replaced it with a rule that limited substitution to no more than three players at a time (or something like that). That meant a team could use up to three players as offensive or defensive specialists. Without checking, I can't recall the year they made that change, but at some point, like maybe 1947, you can see that Baugh abruptly went from intercepting four or five passes a year to none. The same thing happened with a few other offensive stars at the same time, and I think that rule is the reason.

Interesting discussion, by the way. I'll also add that in the Jim Thorpe era the rule was that a player who came out of a game had to wait until the next HALF to come back. Not sure when they changed it to the next quarter, but it couldn't have been much later than 1920.

[rhickok1109]

I read something in an article about Strong - the jist of it was he wanted to show his son what he used to do on the field, but when he got his opportunity to carry the ball, it was a disaster - hit immediately and may have fumbled, so I would say no, he wasn't a position player when he came back to kick.

With regard to substitution, there was some free substitution in the '40s. I mentioned it in an old thread because I had read in Joe Ziemba's Cardinals book Goldberg was a specialist which surprised me:

Somewhere between the war and 1950, I'm pretty sure they dropped the rule that a player who came out of a game couldn't return until the next quarter, and replaced it with a rule that limited substitution to no more than three players at a time (or something like that). That meant a team could use up to three players as offensive or defensive specialists. Without checking, I can't recall the year they made that change, but at some point, like maybe 1947, you can see that Baugh abruptly went from intercepting four or five passes a year to none. The same thing happened with a few other offensive stars at the same time, and I think that rule is the reason.

Interesting discussion, by the way. I'll also add that in the Jim Thorpe era the rule was that a player who came out of a game had to wait until the next HALF to come back. Not sure when they changed it to the next quarter, but it couldn't have been much later than 1920.

The NFL had free substitution from 1943 through 1945. In 1946, the rule was changed to allow no more than 3 substitutions at a time. Completely free substitution was restored in 1950.

[Rupert Patrick]

The NFL had free substitution from 1943 through 1945. In 1946, the rule was changed to allow no more than 3 substitutions at a time. Completely free substitution was restored in 1950.

I take it the AAFC used the same substitution rules the NFL did during it's history, no more than three at a time,

[rhickok1109]

The NFL had free substitution from 1943 through 1945. In 1946, the rule was changed to allow no more than 3 substitutions at a time. Completely free substitution was restored in 1950.

I take it the AAFC used the same substitution rules the NFL did during it's history, no more than three at a time,

I would assume that, but I don't know for certain.