1984 Redskins

[lastcat3]

Was just looking at some games off of youtube and I came across the 1984 week 2 game between Washington and San Francisco. And I realized the Redskins of that year first two games of the season were against the two Super Bowl representatives of the '84 season who had a combined record of 29-3 during the regular season. Also Washington ended the season with a playoff loss against the Bears who would go 15-1 the very next season and win the Super Bowl.

And that got me thinking that although the '84 Redskins definitely aren't viewed as being nearly as good as the '83 team because they didn't have nearly as dominant of regular season. When you really start thinking about it though was there really that much difference between the two teams? There is a very good chance the '83 Skins lose as well if they had to play the likes of the '84 Dolphins and '49ers to open the season. And the '84 Bears may have been able to get a victory against the '83 Redskins too if they played them at the end of the season.

THe '84 Redskins held more teams to two touchdowns or less than the '83 Skins did. Riggins still rushed for over a thousand yards in '84. Theisman had a pretty similar season for both years. Really it seems that a big reason the '83 Redskins may have ended up scoring so many points is because they got in a few shoot outs during the '83 regular season. 30-31 loss to Dallas.37-35 win against the Raiders. 47-48 loss to the Packers. The '84 Redskins still averaged almost 27 points per game so they definitely were no offensive slouches.

[Jay Z]

1984 Redskins were weaker in a few areas. Joe Washington missed half the year. Keith Griffin stepped in, but was not a receiving threat. Charlie Brown missed most of the year. Calvin Muhammad was the replacement, but Art Monk bore most of the load. 1984 Redskins had about 600 fewer passing yards than 1983. Theismann got sacked more as well.

Yardage wise, defense was about the same. 1983 Redskins only turned it over 18 times, and the defense got 61 turnovers for an insane +43 advantage. Turnovers lead to points. 1984 Redskins were +15 at 28-43. Big difference.

[Rupert Patrick]

In 1984 the Redskins slipped a little, and New York and St. Louis got better, leading to one of the half dozen greatest division races in pro football history in my opinion. I think by 1984 the league was catching up to the Washington offensive scheme, the way the Raiders dismantled them in Super Bowl XVIII was no doubt studied by every defensive coordinator in the NFL. The league was also catching up to the defensive schemes Washington was using, especially on pass defense, which cut down on their takeaways in 1984. The leaders of the 1982 Redskins team, Theismann, Riggins, and Moseley, were older players, which is rare for a first time (for this group of guys, not for the franchise) Championship team to have it's three key players be each 10 year or more vets and not a younger player or a newcomer who shows up on the scene and suddenly changes the team chemistry. By 1984 all three were starting to pass their prime, by opening day 1986 only Moseley would remain but would be cut mid-season. Washington won the 1984 NFC East by the length of a missed field goal on the last play of Week 16, and going into that playoff game against the Bears I could smell an upset brewing, that Chicago would win.

[7DnBrnc53]

Speaking of Theismann, how many more years after 84 would he have played if it wasn't for that MNF disaster in 85?

[Rupert Patrick]

Speaking of Theismann, how many more years after 84 would he have played if it wasn't for that MNF disaster in 85?

He wasn't having a good season in 1985, 8 TD's and 16 INT and the Redskins were 5-5 going into the MNF game against the Giants. The injury gave Gibbs the reason to do what he should have done perhaps earlier in the season and bench him and give Jay Schroeder a shot at the starting job. Schroeder won 5 of the 6 remaining games, which included the Giants game which I'm surprised the Redskins won as they must have been demoralized after losing their leader to such a grisly injury.

Had Theismann not been tackled by LT, I doubt Gibbs would have stayed with him the rest of the season and Schroeder would have been made the starter. Going into that fateful game, New York was leading the division at 7-3, with Dallas a half game behind at 7-4, and Washington at 5-5, so the season wasn't over by any means. It is entirely possible if Gibbs had made the move sooner, the Redskins may have won the Eastern division, or at least been the wild card as they wound up the season in a 10-6 deadlock with Dallas and New York.

As for 1986, it's not likely Joe would have have worn the Burgundy and Gold, that either he would have retired or would have tried to catch on as a backup soemwhere. Maybe the Rams bring him in instead of Steve Bartkowski to break in Jim Everett, who was the third choice in the draft. Or maybe the Colts bring him in as a backup for rookie Jack Trudeau. Theismann might have stretched his career another year or two but it would have been at the expense of his allegedly huge ego, which I don't think he could have swallowed. My guess is he would have retired after the 1985 season.

[74_75_78_79_]

Speaking of Theismann, how many more years after 84 would he have played if it wasn't for that MNF disaster in 85?

He wasn't having a good season in 1985, 8 TD's and 16 INT and the Redskins were 5-5 going into the MNF game against the Giants. The injury gave Gibbs the reason to do what he should have done perhaps earlier in the season and bench him and give Jay Schroeder a shot at the starting job. Schroeder won 5 of the 6 remaining games, which included the Giants game which I'm surprised the Redskins won as they must have been demoralized after losing their leader to such a grisly injury.

Had Theismann not been tackled by LT, I doubt Gibbs would have stayed with him the rest of the season and Schroeder would have been made the starter. Going into that fateful game, New York was leading the division at 7-3, with Dallas a half game behind at 7-4, and Washington at 5-5, so the season wasn't over by any means. It is entirely possible if Gibbs had made the move sooner, the Redskins may have won the Eastern division, or at least been the wild card as they wound up the season in a 10-6 deadlock with Dallas and New York.

As for 1986, it's not likely Joe would have have worn the Burgundy and Gold, that either he would have retired or would have tried to catch on as a backup soemwhere. Maybe the Rams bring him in instead of Steve Bartkowski to break in Jim Everett, who was the third choice in the draft. Or maybe the Colts bring him in as a backup for rookie Jack Trudeau. Theismann might have stretched his career another year or two but it would have been at the expense of his allegedly huge ego, which I don't think he could have swallowed. My guess is he would have retired after the 1985 season.

I’m sure there would be a few teams that would have taken Theismann in ’86 with the purpose to start him in such a non-LT/MNF event in which Joe would either get benched or stay on as starter but not rally Wash to ’85 playoffs. It would have been just one bad season for him, I imagine he still would have had stock in other teams’ eyes. If Colts actually do pick up Joe in off-season, you actually think Trudeau would start over him? Or Colts start Joe instead to groom up Jack in the meantime?

What teams, you think, would have wanted him in such a hypothetical? New coach Jim Mora’s Saints, perhaps? Starting Joe over Hebert? Lions (starting over Hipple)? Heck, for me, anything would have been better than Malone. Perhaps with Joe as a starting QB in the ’Burgh, maybe Steelers don’t start 1-6.

[7DnBrnc53]

Heck, for me, anything would have been better than Malone. Perhaps with Joe as a starting QB in the ’Burgh, maybe Steelers don’t start 1-6.

And, let's say that Joe comes back in 87 for one more year as starter. Maybe the Steelers take the AFC Central (or end up with a Wild Card, at least).

[74_75_78_79_]

SF seemed to usually have their way with Gibbs’ teams during his initial time in Washington. Not counting that Week #5 loss his first season in ’81 (dropping Wash to 0-5), Gibbs record vs Walsh/Seifert up through that ’92 divisional was 2-6; first of those wins was the ’83 NFCCG in which his supposed 14-2 juggernaut just barely get past their 10-6 opponent (yes, SF was better than their record, close win vs 9-7 Det at home the week prior notwithstanding). The second of those wins was also at RFK, 14-6, against SF’s worst playoff squad ever (see 49-3 divisional round at Meadowlands). But SF’s 1985 playoff installment was not so strong either (10-6) yet they bludgeon Wash (and at RFK), 35-8, which basically exemplifies my point. Yes, ’84 Redskins lose by ‘just’ six to 15-1-to-be SB Champ in Week #2 on MNF, but Wash had to rally like mad in the end just to make the game seem that close. And they give 14-2 SF a good game in the ’92 divisional, but that game signifies to me that SF may have been just a tad worse than their record, the close win making me even more sure going into the NFCCG that Dallas would prevail.

Heck, for me, anything would have been better than Malone. Perhaps with Joe as a starting QB in the ’Burgh, maybe Steelers don’t start 1-6.

And, let's say that Joe comes back in 87 for one more year as starter. Maybe the Steelers take the AFC Central (or end up with a Wild Card, at least).

The only thing I feel confident enough of in this hypothetical is that Joe would have been good enough to start for some teams and make a difference, helping whatever team he would have been on win a few extra games they may have otherwise not won (whether actually clinching a playoff berth or not). Stretching this hypothetical into ’87 may be doing just that for he’d now be 38. Best case, yes, he does make a difference in that, actually, tight AFC Central race (what a way to go out). Worst - and sadly more likely - case, he’d be spent by then; he nor Malone making a difference. Career over.

[Bryan]

To answer the OP, I'll just reiterate what Jay Z said in that losing Charlie Brown was a huge blow, and losing Joe Washington was also a blow. 84 Skins scored 100+ fewer points and Theismann's passer rating dropped 10+ points. Brown and Washington were big play guys...they each had over 1200 yards from scrimmage in 1983, so I think an offensive drop off would be expected.

SF seemed to usually have their way with Gibbs’ teams during his initial time in Washington. Not counting that Week #5 loss his first season in ’81 (dropping Wash to 0-5), Gibbs record vs Walsh/Seifert up through that ’92 divisional was 2-6; first of those wins was the ’83 NFCCG in which his supposed 14-2 juggernaut just barely get past their 10-6 opponent (yes, SF was better than their record, close win vs 9-7 Det at home the week prior notwithstanding). The second of those wins was also at RFK, 14-6, against SF’s worst playoff squad ever (see 49-3 divisional round at Meadowlands). But SF’s 1985 playoff installment was not so strong either (10-6) yet they bludgeon Wash (and at RFK), 35-8, which basically exemplifies my point. Yes, ’84 Redskins lose by ‘just’ six to 15-1-to-be SB Champ in Week #2 on MNF, but Wash had to rally like mad in the end just to make the game seem that close. And they give 14-2 SF a good game in the ’92 divisional, but that game signifies to me that SF may have been just a tad worse than their record, the close win making me even more sure going into the NFCCG that Dallas would prevail.

I never really got the impression that Walsh/Seifert had some type of 'hold' on Gibbs. Seems like the Skins ended up playing the Niners when SF would make the SB, but not in 82/87/91. The most important matchup (83 NFCC) was won by the Skins. That 1985 game was Schroeder's 2nd pro start, and the Skins 'bludgeoned' the Niners in 1986 with Schroeder at QB. Both the Skins and Niners were usually good, the Niners usually had more talented players, and the Niners beat a lot of teams during that timespan, not just the Redskins.

[74_75_78_79_]

To answer the OP, I'll just reiterate what Jay Z said in that losing Charlie Brown was a huge blow, and losing Joe Washington was also a blow. 84 Skins scored 100+ fewer points and Theismann's passer rating dropped 10+ points. Brown and Washington were big play guys...they each had over 1200 yards from scrimmage in 1983, so I think an offensive drop off would be expected.

SF seemed to usually have their way with Gibbs’ teams during his initial time in Washington. Not counting that Week #5 loss his first season in ’81 (dropping Wash to 0-5), Gibbs record vs Walsh/Seifert up through that ’92 divisional was 2-6; first of those wins was the ’83 NFCCG in which his supposed 14-2 juggernaut just barely get past their 10-6 opponent (yes, SF was better than their record, close win vs 9-7 Det at home the week prior notwithstanding). The second of those wins was also at RFK, 14-6, against SF’s worst playoff squad ever (see 49-3 divisional round at Meadowlands). But SF’s 1985 playoff installment was not so strong either (10-6) yet they bludgeon Wash (and at RFK), 35-8, which basically exemplifies my point. Yes, ’84 Redskins lose by ‘just’ six to 15-1-to-be SB Champ in Week #2 on MNF, but Wash had to rally like mad in the end just to make the game seem that close. And they give 14-2 SF a good game in the ’92 divisional, but that game signifies to me that SF may have been just a tad worse than their record, the close win making me even more sure going into the NFCCG that Dallas would prevail.

I never really got the impression that Walsh/Seifert had some type of 'hold' on Gibbs. Seems like the Skins ended up playing the Niners when SF would make the SB, but not in 82/87/91. The most important matchup (83 NFCC) was won by the Skins. That 1985 game was Schroeder's 2nd pro start, and the Skins 'bludgeoned' the Niners in 1986 with Schroeder at QB. Both the Skins and Niners were usually good, the Niners usually had more talented players, and the Niners beat a lot of teams during that timespan, not just the Redskins.

Point taken. It’s just I couldn’t help but remembering SF beating Redskins often in that time frame, the ’85 game being the centerpiece of those memories. Peeking at their history against each other and seeing Gibbs going 2-7 vs them through ’92 wasn’t too surprising. But pretty much like you said, most of their games against each other was a case of one of them being great while the other was maybe ‘good’ but not great. If Redskins in ’81 could have suddenly been their ’82 installment already, we perhaps could have had ourselves a great SF/Wash matchup. We never did see them meet in ’87 and, yes, no guarantee at all that SF wins. Didn’t see them meet in ’91 either, SF likely being the only team that could have given Wash a good post-season game; but in either event, Wash all-but a definite winner whether the game close or lopsided.

Going back to lastcat’s OP, not so sure ’84 Bears could beat ’83 Skins. As most this thread state, there was a notable falloff offensively. Of course I don’t think ’83 Wash is better than the ’85 Bears, but their offense would have the firepower to at least score some on that ‘46’; and they would be able to score some more on the ’84 version. Don’t think that ’84 Bears O would have the firepower themselves to keep up with ’83 Wash.

As for a possible ’86 destination for Theismann in the event of no injury...KC came to mind. I’d imagine he at that time being better than Kenney or Blackledge; but due to the jury still being out on Todd, I would guess Chiefs would have had no interest bringng Joe onboard even if just for a one-year deal.