Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

I have a soft spot for the 1980 Philadelphia Eagles. They didn't win the Super Bowl, but in my Avalon Hill Super Sunday parallel universe, the 1980 Eagles were the only undefeated team I ever 'coached'. Ron Jaworski was very good. In a game glitch where Wilbert Montgomery's 1981 stats were used instead of his 1980 stats, the Eagles had a dangerous rushing attack as well. The defense was not filled with stars...for some reason Jerry Robinson was on the bench and Bill Bergey left off the team entirely (replaced in the starting lineup by Al Chesley and Reggie Wilkes)...but they got the job done. Keith Krepfle and John Spagnola were equally dominant in the short passing game. I used the best teams in the modern era...the 1972 Dolphins, the 1978 Steelers, the 1984 Niners...but the 1980 Eagles were the only team to reach the 19-0 mark.

How does that game compare to Paydirt/Red Zone? I've always been a longtime Paydirt fan, and the computerized version (Red Zone) was pretty realistic.

Rupert Patrick wrote:How does that game compare to Paydirt/Red Zone? I've always been a longtime Paydirt fan, and the computerized version (Red Zone) was pretty realistic.

I never played Paydirt/Red Zone...all I can say is that, as a kid, the Avalon Hill computer game was superior to rolling the dice and sifting through charts of APBA. It was realistic enough for me, although I don't really know what type of formulas/mathematics were used in the game to come up with the play results. The offensive linemen and defensive players were given two numerical ratings on a scale of 1-5 (5 being best), a 'run' rating and a 'pass' rating. Ray Nitschke being a 5/5 for the 1966 Packers meant that he was dominant, Bob Petrella being a 1/1 for the 1971 Dolphins meant that he was near-death and/or possibly unconscious. The game had a few quirks...every pass to Kent Kramer of the 69 Vikes resulted in a completion, Joe Gilliam of the 74 Steelers got 16 yards on every rushing attempt, Donny Anderson of the 1967 Packers had every punt blocked, etc.

Very easy to forget that Claude was on that squad, as a pass-rush specialist with 14 sacks in ’80. Just when it seemed he cheated himself out of ever experiencing a playoff berth by walking out on the Falcons four weeks into the ’78 campaign, he ended up in the playoffs - and winning a game - with Philly in ’79 and then, of course, SBXV the following year.

Funny thing about those ’80 Birds was that after their strong 3-0 start (each win lopsided), they failed to score a point in the 1st quarter in twelve of their remaining games that very campaign - divisional round & SBXV included. Slow starters, perhaps, who at times seemed to play down to their competition in that 11-1 start (eg - win over winless Saints). Ending the year on that 1-3 skid vs cream-of-crop competition had to make fans worry going into playoffs. And when sheer mediocre Vikings were up 14-0 early in the divisional round, leading 16-14 in the 3rd thanks to a Matt Blair safety, that worry seemed legit. But Birds rallied back en route to a convincer and then earned the conference title with yet another convincer over Big D.

I have a soft spot for that Birds team as well and really did want them to win that SB. However, it seems that once their 2-3 start was out the way, Oakland was pretty much that old John Madden squad there on out (13-2).

The game had a few quirks...every pass to Kent Kramer of the 69 Vikes resulted in a completion, Joe Gilliam of the 74 Steelers got 16 yards on every rushing attempt, Donny Anderson of the 1967 Packers had every punt blocked, etc.

This is why I never warmed up to computer games because the results do not always seem to add up.

When I purchased my first computer in the early nineties (an old 486), the first thing I did was order Lance Hafner's 3 in 1 Football. Not a bad game per se, but often the results seemed unrealistic or left me scratching my head. Besides, as a young man I found much more joy in playing a 'dice and charts' board game such as T.H.E. Football or Paydirt. For example, it was more satisfying playing a game of Paydirt over an hour - deciding the offensive and defensive calls and keeping track of stats - as opposed to a computer games in which you would key in your select teams, press 'go' and get a computer read out within 30 seconds.

I recall one DOS based computer game from back in the day - the name escapes me - that I purchased due to its advertised realism and plethora of great teams of the past. Problem, however, is that it was a design nightmare in that EVERY team was set up as 3-4 defense- the game did not provide an option to run a standard 4-3 defense. So what did you have to do with great defensive teams of the past that ran a 4-3 such as the Fearsome Foursome, Purple People Eaters or Steel Curtain? Improvise!

I remember with the 75 Steelers I would move Earnie Holmes to nose tackle and have Joe Greene and LC Greenwood flank him as defensive ends. Dwight Wight was the right side edge rusher while Andy Russell moved to inside linebacker alongside Jack Lambert. I wonder if this might be how the Steel Curtain would align if its members were in their prime today?

Besides, another advantage of dice and chart games is that unlike computer games they give you the option to make corrections if the designers got the details or facts incorrect. if Joe Gilliam gets 16 yards on every rush then re-design his card to more accurately reflects his stats from that given season. More specifically, T.H.E. Football was also set up on a 1 to 5 rating system with 5 highest. Problem, however, is that the 1975 T.H.E. team charts both rated Jack Ham and Jack Lambert as just a '2' in terms of pass defense. Obviously, this is a misnomer in that Ham and Lambert had hall of fame careers based upon their ability to drop back and defend again the pass. With T.H.E., it was an easy fix: change the pass defense rating for the 2 to a four instead. If you are playing a computer game involving the 75 Steelers and Ham and Lambert keep getting killed on pass defense then sadly there is probably nothing you could do about it.

Some Guy From Mars wrote:

The game had a few quirks...every pass to Kent Kramer of the 69 Vikes resulted in a completion, Joe Gilliam of the 74 Steelers got 16 yards on every rushing attempt, Donny Anderson of the 1967 Packers had every punt blocked, etc.

This is why I never warmed up to computer games because the results do not always seem to add up.

When I purchased my first computer in the early nineties (an old 486), the first thing I did was order Lance Hafner's 3 in 1 Football. Not a bad game per se, but often the results seemed unrealistic or left me scratching my head. Besides, as a young man I found much more joy in playing a 'dice and charts' board game such as T.H.E. Football or Paydirt. For example, it was more satisfying playing a game of Paydirt over an hour - deciding the offensive and defensive calls and keeping track of stats - as opposed to a computer games in which you would key in your select teams, press 'go' and get a computer read out within 30 seconds.

I recall one DOS based computer game from back in the day - the name escapes me - that I purchased due to its advertised realism and plethora of great teams of the past. Problem, however, is that it was a design nightmare in that EVERY team was set up as 3-4 defense- the game did not provide an option to run a standard 4-3 defense. So what did you have to do with great defensive teams of the past that ran a 4-3 such as the Fearsome Foursome, Purple People Eaters or Steel Curtain? Improvise!

I remember with the 75 Steelers I would move Earnie Holmes to nose tackle and have Joe Greene and LC Greenwood flank him as defensive ends. Dwight Wight was the right side edge rusher while Andy Russell moved to inside linebacker alongside Jack Lambert. I wonder if this might be how the Steel Curtain would align if its members were in their prime today?

Besides, another advantage of dice and chart games is that unlike computer games they give you the option to make corrections if the designers got the details or facts incorrect. if Joe Gilliam gets 16 yards on every rush then re-design his card to more accurately reflects his stats from that given season. More specifically, T.H.E. Football was also set up on a 1 to 5 rating system with 5 highest. Problem, however, is that the 1975 T.H.E. team charts both rated Jack Ham and Jack Lambert as just a '2' in terms of pass defense. Obviously, this is a misnomer in that Ham and Lambert had hall of fame careers based upon their ability to drop back and defend again the pass. With T.H.E., it was an easy fix: change the pass defense rating for the 2 to a four instead. If you are playing a computer game involving the 75 Steelers and Ham and Lambert keep getting killed on pass defense then sadly there is probably nothing you could do about it.

I love football board games, and I have been trying to track down T.H.E. Football game (not to mention T.H.E. Baseball game) for over a decade now but because of it's common name, I have never been able to find it online. An Ebay or Google search for T.H.E. Football Board Game doesn't help me at all, wonder why? I know it is very rare. Who produced the game, or is there a link online to T.H.E. Football game?

I love football board games, and I have been trying to track down T.H.E. Football game (not to mention T.H.E. Baseball game) for over a decade now but because of it's common name, I have never been able to find it online. An Ebay or Google search for T.H.E. Football Board Game doesn't help me at all, wonder why? I know it is very rare. Who produced the game, or is there a link online to T.H.E. Football game?

I would like to start off with an apology in that in between watching 'The 2 Bills' on ESPN, I pulled out my old T.H.E. charts for the 75 Steelers only to discover that Ham and Lambert are actually rated as '3' in for pass defense. It is Andy Russell who is rated a 2, which probably should be around a 3.

Now that that is out of the way, T.H.E. Football was produced by Gamecraft for the following 5 NFL seasons: 72, 73, 74, 75 & 76. Team charts were also created for the following all time great teams: 58 Colts, 62 Packers, 69 Vikings & 69 Chiefs.

Yes, good luck with a Google or eBay search in that little if anything comes up due to the games rarity. I have been seeking the 74 and 76 team charts for the better part of 30 years all to know avail.

As a younger man, I got into the game to such an extent I created team charts for the 77 Broncos, 77 Cowboys and even the 85 Bears. Since I did not have the charts for the 76 season, I also created the 76 Raiders.

Addendum: Forgot to mention that I also did the 78 Steelers.

I also made some extensive rule changes and additions to cover up some of the holes or shortcomings with T.H.E. Football. IMHO, T.H.E. is by far the best dice and chart football game created but had some lose ends that needed tying up.

1. I created defensive ratings for special team defense (punt and kick off returns)
2. For solitaire purposes I created a percentage bases system (using a pair of 10 sided dice from my old AD&D days) in order to determine which wide receiver or back is targeted on a pass play.
3. I revamped the old pass rush rules. Previously, if 'rush' came up on the result of a pass play (off the individual QB chart) you would then consult the 'pass rush' section on the opposing teams defensive chart. This did not seem thorough enough to me, so I instead assigned to each team a pass protection rating (for offense) and pass rush rating (for defense) and for each pass play, cross reference the two on a separate Pass Protection Chart to determine what might happen to the QB (sack, no sack or reduction in the chance a pass might be completed to reflect a QB throwing a pass in the face of a heavy pass rush).

On a side note: Yes, you are correct in that I did not have much of a life back in the day! You are also correct in that I have a tendency to overthink things.

4. Assigned defensive ratings (against the run and pass) for each defense in terms of its ability to stop a big play.

Hope I did not overwhelm everyone with too much detail because it would be sufficient to say I was a bit of a 'T.H.E. Guru' back in the day- even if to a fault!

The Eagles had another team to make the Super Bowl. Remember them? They actually made a game of it too. Or is McNabb and everyone associated with that team still booed in Philly?

1980 Eagles were a good team, but they still had no business laying an egg (hah) in the Super Bowl. Did they give up once they saw Ray Guy punting, like the 1927 Pirates seeing Babe Ruth? Give me a break. 1980 Raiders rode their "dominance" all the way to a 7-9 record the next year. Funny how none of the AFC playoff teams got pancaked like the Eagles did.

Jay Z wrote:The Eagles had another team to make the Super Bowl. Remember them? They actually made a game of it too. Or is McNabb and everyone associated with that team still booed in Philly?

1980 Eagles were a good team, but they still had no business laying an egg (hah) in the Super Bowl. Did they give up once they saw Ray Guy punting, like the 1927 Pirates seeing Babe Ruth? Give me a break. 1980 Raiders rode their "dominance" all the way to a 7-9 record the next year. Funny how none of the AFC playoff teams got pancaked like the Eagles did.

McNabb had a bad rap amongst Philly fans. That possible myth about him throwing up in the huddle during the Super Bowl vs Pats doesn’t help. Maybe it was he being unable to set TO straight; who knows? He wasn’t an ‘elite’ QB in his time but had the talent and plenty of heart. Definitely was big on playing injured. If Jaws still gets Brotherly Love to this day, so should Donovan. Not only do Vermeil’s Birds seem to be looked back on with more fondness locally than Andy Reid’s squads, but also Gang Green who didn’t win a playoff game (their only post-season victory) until Kotite’s 2nd year at helm. In addition to a SB berth, Reid led Eagles to multiple CCGs, 5 in all. I still would place Vermeil as a better HC, but Reid’s run in Philly has so far been the best Eagle run in the past 50+ years. That said, Eagles giving Belichick/Brady’s Pats a game in SBXXXIX (as opposed to SBXV) doesn’t say too much in that B&B’s Pats have yet to win (or lose) a lopsided Super Bowl. In fact, their win over Eagles I’d say is their most lopsided SB-win; Eagles scoring that real late TD to make the final, 24-21.

I know many on here aren't into computer games but there are two simulation style pro football games now that are extremely realistic. Strat-o-Matic and Front office football. Strat-o-Matic is more for those that prefer playing with real teams from the present or past. While Front office Football is for those that like creating their very own franchise and playing it into future seasons.

I prefer the Front office Football style as I get a little bored playing with the same teams all the time. I like it when teams change year after year. Players change teams and get older while new players are drafted into the league.