HoF semifinalist list released

[bachslunch]

Here's the list. There are 27 names this year -- must have been a three-way tie for the final spot:

Steve Atwater
Ronde Barber
Tony Boselli
Isaac Bruce
LeRoy Butler
Don Coryell
Roger Craig
Brian Dawkins
Alan Faneca
Torry Holt
Steve Hutchinson
Joe Jacoby
Edgerrin James
Jimmy Johnson
Ty Law
Ray Lewis
John Lynch
Kevin Mawae
Karl Mecklenburg
Randy Moss
Leslie O’Neal
Terrell Owens
Simeon Rice
Richard Seymour
Brian Urlacher
Everson Walls
Hines Ward

Mostly expected names, though there are couple of surprises. I don't think any of the surprises will progress any further, though.

Have to admit I’m disappointed not to see Mike Kenn (who has only one eligible year left now), Sterling Sharpe, Darren Woodson (who fortunately does have a lot of eligibility left), and Zach Thomas (ditto) left off. Kenn’s case was always borderline, though I think he has every bit as good an argument as Joe Jacoby — his not making the semifinals probably means the end of his regular candidacy chances. If I had to choose, I'd probably drop Walls, Ward, O'Neal, and Rice.

Everson Walls (3/4/none) was a surprise to see. My guess is that he got a few votes because it’s his last regularly eligible year and he has a fair number of lifetime interceptions. Every source I’ve encountered that talks about his quality of play, however, suggests that he wasn’t an especially impressive player — basically, the sort of cornerback who has a fair number of interceptions because he got thrown on a lot and wasn’t the best in coverage. I don’t think he belongs in at all. Will be very surprised if he advances further.

Leslie O’Neal (0/6/none) is borderline for me, though if you like sacks, I guess he deserves some kind of consideration. Maybe not when the competition is this fierce, though. That goes for Simeon Rice (2/3/none) as well. it’s pretty obvious that these two made the cut because they have the most lifetime sacks of any eligible player not in the HoF. I don’t think their candidacies will go anywhere.

[Bryan]

Have to admit I’m disappointed not to see Mike Kenn (who has only one eligible year left now), Sterling Sharpe, Darren Woodson (who fortunately does have a lot of eligibility left), and Zach Thomas (ditto) left off. Kenn’s case was always borderline, though I think he has every bit as good an argument as Joe Jacoby — his not making the semifinals probably means the end of his regular candidacy chances. If I had to choose, I'd probably drop Walls, Ward, O'Neal, and Rice.

Everson Walls (3/4/none) was a surprise to see. My guess is that he got a few votes because it’s his last regularly eligible year and he has a fair number of lifetime interceptions. Every source I’ve encountered that talks about his quality of play, however, suggests that he wasn’t an especially impressive player — basically, the sort of cornerback who has a fair number of interceptions because he got thrown on a lot and wasn’t the best in coverage. I don’t think he belongs in at all. Will be very surprised if he advances further.

Leslie O’Neal (0/6/none) is borderline for me, though if you like sacks, I guess he deserves some kind of consideration. Maybe not when the competition is this fierce, though. That goes for Simeon Rice (2/3/none) as well. it’s pretty obvious that these two made the cut because they have the most lifetime sacks of any eligible player not in the HoF. I don’t think their candidacies will go anywhere.

I agree with most everything you said, except I'm probably not as high on Darren Woodson as you. I think this is a really strong semifinalist list, but even then there is no reason for Kenn, Sharpe and Zach Thomas to be omitted. I'd put all three of those guys in Canton. Here are my unpopular thoughts and YES/NO if I would vote them into the HOF:

Steve Atwater - NO
Ronde Barber - NO
Tony Boselli - NO, I'd use the short career exception on Sharpe before I'd use it on Boselli
Isaac Bruce - NO
LeRoy Butler - NO
Don Coryell - YES, and I'm in the vast minority on this
Roger Craig -NO, and this is starting to aggravate me
Brian Dawkins - YES
Alan Faneca - YES
Torry Holt - NO
Steve Hutchinson - YES
Joe Jacoby - NO, I thought Grimm getting in kind of killed Jacoby's campaign, as one (undeserved) Hog got representation in Canton
Edgerrin James - NO (I really liked James as a player, he was better than Curtis Martin IMO)
Jimmy Johnson - NO, and I can already visualize the angst of "You'd put in Coryell before JJ?"
Ty Law - NO, I think if he gets in, it will be because "well, we need a CB to put in"
Ray Lewis - YES
John Lynch - NO
Kevin Mawae - NO
Karl Mecklenburg - NO
Randy Moss - YES
Leslie O’Neal - NO
Terrell Owens - YES
Simeon Rice - NO
Richard Seymour - NO
Brian Urlacher - YES
Everson Walls - NO
Hines Ward - NO, see Roger Craig


I don't know what to make of defensive players like Ty Law and Richard Seymour...yeah, they were good, but HOF? But then its like what other DT or CB would you put in? I think at some point what constitutes a defensive HOFer will have to radically change; the convenient 3-down LB who plays every game for 10+ seasons is already a thing of the past. There might be a point where the only defensive players who get into Canton are the pass-rush specialist who rack up sacks.

Kevin Mawae is like the AFC version of Olin Kreutz. Dermontti Dawson had to wait forever to get in, but he was much better than Mawae IMO.

Bruce and Holt were fine NFL WRs, but I never thought of them as being elite. Perhaps they will get in later on, but I would put in Moss and Owens over them (as much as it pains me to say that).

There are 6 DBs on the semifinalist list, and DBs tend to be underrepresented in the HOF (at least Safeties are underrepresented IMO)...but Dawkins is the only guy I can unabashedly vote for in this group. No way on Walls. I liked Lynch, but he is HOVG for me...definitely not a HOFer. Atwater, Barber, Butler I might be convinced on.

I figure if Jerry Jones made it already, then Jimmy Johnson will get in, too. I think he was a fine coach, but the longevity just isn't there. The difference between Johnson and Seifert/Flores is that he had to build his team from scratch, but I would put in Buddy Parker before I put in Johnson (well, maybe I would, at least).

Don Coryell could probably have his own thread in terms of HOF discussion...I think we had one here a couple years ago. Chuck Noll once said "Coaches coach, players win", and I get that putting in a head coach mainly for a nebulous term like "innovativeness" is similar to putting in an owner due to nebulous "committee work", but I think Coryell is the one exception who deserves to be remembered in Canton.

[L.C. Greenwood]

Have to admit I’m disappointed not to see Mike Kenn (who has only one eligible year left now), Sterling Sharpe, Darren Woodson (who fortunately does have a lot of eligibility left), and Zach Thomas (ditto) left off. Kenn’s case was always borderline, though I think he has every bit as good an argument as Joe Jacoby — his not making the semifinals probably means the end of his regular candidacy chances. If I had to choose, I'd probably drop Walls, Ward, O'Neal, and Rice.

Everson Walls (3/4/none) was a surprise to see. My guess is that he got a few votes because it’s his last regularly eligible year and he has a fair number of lifetime interceptions. Every source I’ve encountered that talks about his quality of play, however, suggests that he wasn’t an especially impressive player — basically, the sort of cornerback who has a fair number of interceptions because he got thrown on a lot and wasn’t the best in coverage. I don’t think he belongs in at all. Will be very surprised if he advances further.

Leslie O’Neal (0/6/none) is borderline for me, though if you like sacks, I guess he deserves some kind of consideration. Maybe not when the competition is this fierce, though. That goes for Simeon Rice (2/3/none) as well. it’s pretty obvious that these two made the cut because they have the most lifetime sacks of any eligible player not in the HoF. I don’t think their candidacies will go anywhere.

I agree with most everything you said, except I'm probably not as high on Darren Woodson as you. I think this is a really strong semifinalist list, but even then there is no reason for Kenn, Sharpe and Zach Thomas to be omitted. I'd put all three of those guys in Canton. Here are my unpopular thoughts and YES/NO if I would vote them into the HOF:

Steve Atwater - NO
Ronde Barber - NO
Tony Boselli - NO, I'd use the short career exception on Sharpe before I'd use it on Boselli
Isaac Bruce - NO
LeRoy Butler - NO
Don Coryell - YES, and I'm in the vast minority on this
Roger Craig -NO, and this is starting to aggravate me
Brian Dawkins - YES
Alan Faneca - YES
Torry Holt - NO
Steve Hutchinson - YES
Joe Jacoby - NO, I thought Grimm getting in kind of killed Jacoby's campaign, as one (undeserved) Hog got representation in Canton
Edgerrin James - NO (I really liked James as a player, he was better than Curtis Martin IMO)
Jimmy Johnson - NO, and I can already visualize the angst of "You'd put in Coryell before JJ?"
Ty Law - NO, I think if he gets in, it will be because "well, we need a CB to put in"
Ray Lewis - YES
John Lynch - NO
Kevin Mawae - NO
Karl Mecklenburg - NO
Randy Moss - YES
Leslie O’Neal - NO
Terrell Owens - YES
Simeon Rice - NO
Richard Seymour - NO
Brian Urlacher - YES
Everson Walls - NO
Hines Ward - NO, see Roger Craig



Hines Ward has two significant advantages over Roger Craig in the HOF discussion. Ward was better longer, as Craig faded with the Raiders and Vikings. Also, Craig made a colossal mistake in the 1990 NFC TG, costing the chance for SF to possibly three peat. It could take 10-15 years, but Ward's a HOF player.

[Bryan]

Hines Ward has two significant advantages over Roger Craig in the HOF discussion. Ward was better longer, as Craig faded with the Raiders and Vikings. Also, Craig made a colossal mistake in the 1990 NFC TG, costing the chance for SF to possibly three peat. It could take 10-15 years, but Ward's a HOF player.

You could compare Ward to RBs who are already in the HOF and say "Ward was better longer". Craig was 1st team All-Pro in 1988 for his monster year (1500 yards rushing, 4.8 YPC on mainly between the tackles running, 76 receptions). Craig didn't even get 1st team All-Pro honors in 1985 for his 1000/1000 season, losing out to Walter Payton despite Craig having more yards and TDs than Payton. Craig amazingly had the same number of pro bowls (4) as Ward, and Craig's pro bowl appearances were spread out over 5 years, as opposed to Ward's 4 consecutive appearances.

I think if Craig had two or three more 1985/1988 type seasons, he'd be a HOF RB. He did have elite ability, IMO. Not sure the same could be said about Ward.

[JWL]

Edgerrin James - NO (I really liked James as a player, he was better than Curtis Martin IMO)

At the zenith of their career's possibly James was better but possibly not. Without looking up the stats, I'm thinking 2000 was James's best season and 2004 was possibly Martin's best year. Overall career production/value/usefulness I find Martin as being greater. I do rate James higher than some other RBs currently in the PFHOF but I am not interested (not on this date, at least) in knocking anybody currently in the PFHOF. For me, James is on the borderline. I have no issue with him being inducted.

[Bryan]

At the zenith of their career's possibly James was better but possibly not.

Pre-injured James led the NFL in rushing his first two years, and was on pace to lead the NFL in rushing again for his third year in 2001 before he got hurt, which would have put him in Jim Brown/Earl Campbell rarefied air. I don't really remember Curtis Martin having an equally dominant stretch in his career.

[ChrisBabcock]

and Zach Thomas (ditto) left off.

Zach Thomas' lack of HOF consideration is mind boggling to me.

[74_75_78_79_]

I’m sure enough I heard it from this site, but wasn’t Everson Walls one of the teammates who told a crying rookie Michael Irvin after a loss to not be upset and then reminding him of the upcoming paycheck (only for #88 himself to give Jimmy the names of all those players the following year)?

[JohnTurney]

/quote]

Zach Thomas' lack of HOF consideration is mind boggling to me.

He was the beneificiary of the 2 ILBer all-Pro format by the AP from 1984 or so through last year.

The times he was First-team All-Pro he was always the 2nd leading vote-getter. In the mid-1980s the Ap added a 2nd ILBer because 24-25 of the teams were 3-4 teams. By the time Thomas was in NFL that was reversed and most were 4-3 teams, but AP never adjusted and then in mid-2000s teams started going back to some 3-4 schemes/

Anyway, he never made the PFWA team which had one ILB...just food for thought

[L.C. Greenwood]

and Zach Thomas (ditto) left off.

Zach Thomas' lack of HOF consideration is mind boggling to me.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe the tackles for loss stat was in full use during Thomas' career. Not all tackles are created equal, and while Thomas complied a large number, many of those were in the four plus yards downfield variety. An excellent player, but not dominant the way other inside linebackers in the HOF have been.