Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Simple question, no? I think Blanda still holds the record for most seasons with 26. Morten Andersen played the most games with 383. But what about the actual football played/minutes played? Blanda spent the vast majority of his career as a kicker and backup QB. Andersen only saw the field for a few minutes each game.

If a guy like Jerry Rice has 303 regular season games played, could we assume that he played roughly 30 minutes per game for 9090 minutes in a career, since he only played on offense? Should we then add in postseason games, meaning an additional 29 games and 870 minutes?

Brett Favre is also up there, with 302 regular season games played and 24 playoff games. Favre had more starts than Rice (298 + 24 postseason/322 total vs. 284 + 29 postseason/313 total), and Rice probably wasn't in for every offensive snap whereas Favre usually was. Its possible that Favre's minutes played would exceed Rice's projected total of 9960 minutes.

My whole point is to ask this question...do you think one of the old two-way players would actually hold this 'record'? Would a guy like Mel Hein who played 178 games (170 regular season + 8 postseason) have played the most NFL football with 10680 minutes (178 games X 60 minutes played)?

I don't know the answer - I like how your thinking about it in terms of minutes - that pretty quickly eliminates players who specialized in kicking/punting.

Hein seems like a good candidate but I think in the 40s we started to see substitution rules that allowed players to re-enter before the start of the next quarter. I think substitution was unlimited in '43, but even in other seasons in the 40s, I think you could sub 3 players at a time. Does anyone know the specifics of this? Its possible Hein wasn't playing 60 minutes late in his career, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if he was.

The first player that popped into my head was Ted Nesser. I counted 19 seasons. Of course then "NFL" would have to be changed to "professional".

Bryan wrote:Simple question, no? I think Blanda still holds the record for most seasons with 26.

Unofficially, of course, Blanda only played 16 years of NFL football, and got an extra 10 years added to his career record after the merger took effect in 1970.

That said, I think you all are right about Mel Hein or Ted Nesser. A quarterback like Sammy Baugh (who had 165 games compared to Peyton Manning's 266) would have more overall minutes because he played in an era of 60-minute men who were on offense and defense. I know leagues like the NBA count number of minutes played, but I don't know of any breakdown like that for the NFL. It would make a good project for someone who wanted to spend the time to do it.

A quarterback like Sammy Baugh (who had 165 games compared to Peyton Manning's 266) would have more overall minutes because he played in an era of 60-minute men who were on offense and defense.

Games per season might offset this a bit though.

We have to be careful about that "60 minutes a game" thing, though, because actually playing 60 minutes a game was pretty much unheard of after 1930 or thereabouts.

Look at this excerpt from the summary of the Packer-Bear game of Sept. 28, 1930:

PACKERS
[starting lineup]
Dilweg, l.e.
Hubbard, l.t.
Zuver, l.g.
Earpe, c
Bowdoin, r.g.
Hanny, r.t.
O'Donnell, r.e.
Herber, q.b.
Zuidmulder, l.h.b.
Englemann, r.h.b.
Molenda, f.b.

Substitutions: Perry for Hubbard, Michalske for Zuber, Darling for Earpe, Woodin for Bowdoin, Sleight for Hanny, Nash for O'Donnell, Dunn for Herber, Lewellen for Zuidmulder, Blood for Englemann, McCrary for Molenda.

[I copied this from a JPEG of the newspaper summary on packerhistory.net}

It appears that Dilweg played all 60 minutes for the Packers, but he was the only starter who did. In fact, in several cases the player who started was not what might be called the first-string player. Michalske, Nash, Dunn, Lewellen, and Blood were all "starters," yet they started the game on the bench and probably played more minutes than the players who did start the game.

There were a couple of things at play here. First, the starting lineup usually depended on whether the team was going to kick off or receive the opening kickoff. If kicking off, the better defensive players would start at some positions, while the better offensive players would start if the team was going to receive the kickoff.

Second, some coaches were using the tactic, pioneered by Rockne at Notre Dame, of opening the game with "shock troops," second-stringers who would often play much of the first quarter to wear down the other team's starters before the fresh first-string players came off the bench.

In short, you can't just multiply the number of games played by 60 to estimate the number of career minutes played; 40 might be a more realistic factor.

The two examples given speak to Ralph's point. Steve Owen often swapped out entire units with the change of quarters starting in the later 1930s and that included Hein. Baugh frequently alternated quarters with Filchock and other tailbacks/qbs.

I think at one point the rule was that if a player was substituted for, they couldn't re-enter the game until the next quarter - this served as a disincentive for giving a star player a breather as you would lose him for an extended period. I think this became more lax in the 40s though as I read Greasy Neale say that they seldom used Van Buren on defense. And Joe Ziemba mentions Marshall Goldberg as a defensive specialist in the 40s, so I think specialization came into play at some point during that decade. (More reason for me not to like the 75th Anniversary two-way team - some of the players seem to have been only occasional two-way players)

I still have a decent feeling about Ted Nesser playing a lot of minutes across 19 seasons - I don't think the Nessers came out of a game unless they were thrown out for fighting

TanksAndSpartans wrote:I think at one point the rule was that if a player was substituted for, they couldn't re-enter the game until the next quarter - this served as a disincentive for giving a star player a breather as you would lose him for an extended period. I think this became more lax in the 40s though as I read Greasy Neale say that they seldom used Van Buren on defense. And Joe Ziemba mentions Marshall Goldberg as a defensive specialist in the 40s, so I think specialization came into play at some point during that decade. (More reason for me not to like the 75th Anniversary two-way team - some of the players seem to have been only occasional two-way players)

I still have a decent feeling about Ted Nesser playing a lot of minutes across 19 seasons - I don't think the Nessers came out of a game unless they were thrown out for fighting

Yes, that was the substitution rule until 1943. But, while the rule was, as you say, a disincentive for giving a star player a breather, it may well have been an incentive for not starting a star player. Instead, since the coach couldn't do that, he might well keep that player on the bench for the first 5 minutes or so of a period so he would be fresh when he entered the game.

For example, during his first four years with the Packers, Don Hutson never started a game when the Packers kicked off. Lambeau would put him in when he decided the moment was right; for example, if the Packers took over in good field position in the first quarter.

The NFL temporarily went to unlimited substitution in 1943. They went back to the old rule in 1946 but adopted unlimited substitution again in 1950.

BTW, I totally agree with you about Nesser. In his era, a lot of players went all 60 minutes and starters usually went 50+ minutes in a contested game.

rhickok1109 wrote:The NFL temporarily went to unlimited substitution in 1943. They went back to the old rule in 1946 but adopted unlimited substitution again in 1950.

Somewhere between the war and 1950, I'm pretty sure they dropped the rule that a player who came out of a game couldn't return until the next quarter, and replaced it with a rule that limited substitution to no more than three players at a time (or something like that). That meant a team could use up to three players as offensive or defensive specialists. Without checking, I can't recall the year they made that change, but at some point, like maybe 1947, you can see that Baugh abruptly went from intercepting four or five passes a year to none. The same thing happened with a few other offensive stars at the same time, and I think that rule is the reason.

Interesting discussion, by the way. I'll also add that in the Jim Thorpe era the rule was that a player who came out of a game had to wait until the next HALF to come back. Not sure when they changed it to the next quarter, but it couldn't have been much later than 1920.