TanksAndSpartans wrote:rhickok1109 wrote:That looks pretty good to me, but I'd be tempted to put Red Dunn at QB, since that was his actual position. Herber's often listed as a QB because he was a passer, but he was actually a single-wing tailback most of the time, like Lewellen.
Thank you. I agree with your points. I'd drop Lewellen then and make the backs Dunn, Blood, Herber, and Hinkle. I also considered Lambeau, but I like that Dunn was integral to some of the title teams. In my head I was using the T formation since it just makes things easier and easier to relate to people who think of the positions in modern terms.
One thing I've never been clear on... In a critical game against the Spartans in 30', Dunn threw a game tying TD pass (game ended 6-6). He was the quarterback or blocking back and Lewellen was the LH or tailback. So Lewellen should be getting the snaps. How does Dunn wind up throwing that pass? Did they run the T for that play? Did they line up in the single-wing and Dunn just slid under center and grabbed the snap?
The Packers used the Notre Dame shift, which Lambeau had learned in his one season playing for Rockne. They lined up in what we now call the full house T, although the QB wasn't directly behind the center; he was between the center and the right guard and about a yard deep. From the T, they could shift into any of three formations. The line was balanced, so the strength of the formation was determined by how the backs shifted (much as today a team might offset the fullback to the right or left).
But they could also run plays directly from the T, without shifting. The Packers (and Rockne, and Jess Harper before Rockne) could run play action passes from the T, with the QB getting the ball on a little flip pass from the center, faking a handoff and throwing, just as is done today.
In the Notre Dame Box, which was the formation that the team shifted into most often, the QB could also take a direct snap. He was a little farther to the right and a little farther back than in the T formation. When the QB passed from the box formation, the play usually started with the tailback pretending to the snap and making it look like a running play while the QB could drop back and look for a receiver.
In obvious passing formations, virtually all teams, including the Packers, used the short punt formation. Any one of the players could line up as the tailback to throw the ball. Llewellen, Blood, and others sometimes played tailback and threw from the short punt formation, but the passer was usually Dunn. He was the Packers' primary passer throughout his career with them.
Another thing about the Notre Dame shift, as Rockne explains in his book on coaching, was that it wasn't easy for the defense to see exactly who the backs were or what they were doing when they shifted, which is the main reason that Rockne preferred it to the single wing. The player who was usually the QB could sometimes line up at left halfback and shift into the tailback position.
It's probably worth noting that Gus Dorais was the Notre Dame QB in 1913, when he completed 14 of 17 passes in the 35-13 win over Army that put Notre Dame on the national map.
Fort the record, here's what Johnny Blood told me about Dunn: “Red Dunn could throw the ball as well as anybody at the time. Benny Friedman was considered the best pro passer then, because he had the big college reputation, but every time we played the Giants, Red outplayed Benny, as far as I’m concerned." (from p. 96 of my book,
Vagabond Halfback: The Saga of Johnny Blood McNally.
