Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

So, Von Miller, who is in my opinion, an "edge" rusher, same as Mack, Suggs, Beasley, etc . . . is a linebacker and if you vote for him as an edge rusher, you ballot was returned and had to do it over.

So, no chance of splitting votes, but also guarantees Miller extra votes, suspect will be unanimous as one of the three linebackers.



AP Voters:
Below is a list of specific defensive players and their defined positions for our new All-Pro ballot.

EDGE RUSHERS
Khalil Mack
Terrell Suggs
Cameron Waker
Kerry Hyder
Dee Ford
Justin Houston
Cameron Jordan
Michael Bennett
Danielle Hunter
Everson Griffen
Vic Beasley Jr.
Jadeveon Clowney
Ryan Kerrigan
Brian Orakpo
Derrick Morgan
Nick Perry
Julius Peppers

INTERIOR LINEMEN
Sheldon Richardson
Fletcher Cox
Calais Campbell
Aaron Donald

LINEBACKER
Von Miller
Clay Matthews
Lorenzo Alexander

Could see probable issues with this coming from a mile away.

On another note it's been funny all season how many fans repeat "Mack was all-pro at two positions!" while not knowing how/why that happened. Even when you explain it to them they don't get it.

Either way, I never understood why it was difficult to have 11 players on offense and 11 players on defense since you know, that's how many are actually on the field. Different formations could have always been it's own voting slot. e.g. FB/Slot WR for the 11th spot on offense (QB, RB, WR, WR, TE, LT, LG, C, RG, RT & FB/Slot ... it's not that hard to come up with this stuff.) Instead they have this Flex nonsense. Which if voting goes how I think it will, over the years will just become the 2nd RB (which never made sense) or worse will become a low vote "winner". The # of players that could be voted there could mean that the "Flex" selection is a 3rd-tier choice that just got flex votes because he wasn't good enough for the main RB, WR, etc, vote.

Defensively I like defining the positions for voting purposes* to avoid the numerous situations of the past where a player would have been all-pro but got votes at multiple positions or the opposite in the Mack situation. But I don't like how they did it. Especially seeing Miller at LB which doesn't put him with his peers, at all. I agree it will likely make him one of the 3 LB'ers and I don't think he had a 1st-team all-pro season (2nd-team for me, probably) if he were listed with the edge-rushers.

What's funny is that the only thing they really needed to change was giving some respect to 4-3 OLB's and that their changes don't do that. Lavonte David was screwed in the past. Telvin Smith will be screwed this year (I'm predicting, would be happy to be wrong). It's trending towards having 3 edge rushers (if Von is 1st-team and because of who he is it's almost certain he will be) and 2 MLB/ILB's.

The AP All-Pro team - in my lifetime - has always been infuriating. The voters, how they vote and their "this is the 'official' NFL all-pro team" lies. This just adds to it (though again, the team isn't out yet so I would be happy to be wrong but it's fairly predictable it's going to be messed up.)

* - They could have still used real positions instead of edge/interior. The positions really weren't the problem anyway. It's always been the voters, how they vote and how the votes are counted. Mack for example, even though got votes at two positions the votes could have been counted towards one position. Not that hard.

With the positions you have to compare players with different scheme responsibilities at their position anyway. There's CB's who play a lot of man, CB's who primarily are in zone, CB's who only play on one side of the field, and so on. Just like there's interchangeable safeties. Just like there's 3-4 OLB's and 4-3 OLB's. Shouldn't have been hard to vote for the best OLB's but evidently it was too hard for the recent & current set of AP voters.

2016 AP All pro

Offense

Quarterback - Matt Ryan, Atlanta

Wide receivers - Julio Jones, Atlanta, Antonio Brown, Pittsburgh

Running back - Ezekiel Elliott, Dallas

Flex - David Johnson, Arizona

Tight end - Travis Kelce, Kansas City

Tackles - Tyron Smith, Dallas, Jack Conklin, Tennessee

Guards - Zack Martin, Dallas, Kelechi Osemele, Oakland

Center - Travis Frederick, Dallas

Defense

Edge rushers - Khalil Mack, Oakland, Vic Beasley, Atlanta

Defensive tackles - Aaron Donald, Los Angeles, Damon Harrison, N.Y. Giants

Linebackers - Sean Lee, Dallas, Von Miller, Denver, Bobby Wagner, Seattle

Cornerbacks - Marcus Peters, Kansas City, Chris Harris, Jr. Denver, Aqib Talib, Denver

Safeties - Eric Berry, Kansas City, Landon Collins, N.Y. Giants

Special teams

Kicker - Justin Tucker, Baltimore

Punter - Johnny Hekker, Los Angeles

Punt returner - Tyreek Hill, Kansas City

Kick returner - Cordarrelle Patterson, Minnesota

Special teamer - Matthew Slater, New England

SECOND TEAM OFFENSE

Quarterback – Tom Brady, New England

Running Back — David Johnson, Arizona

Flex – Le'Veon Bell, Pittsburgh

Tight End – Greg Olsen, Carolina

Wide Receivers – Odell Beckham Jr., New York Giants; Mike Evans, Tampa Bay

Left Tackle — David Bakhtiari, Green Bay

Right Tackle — Mitchell Schwartz, Kansas City, and Marcus Cannon, New England

Left Guard— Marshal Yanda, Baltimore

Right Guard — David DeCastro, Pittsburgh

Center— Alex Mack, Atlanta

DEFENSE

Edge Rushers: Jadeveon Clowney, Houston; Cameron Wake, Miami, Olivier Vernon, New York Giants, and Brandon Graham, Philadelphia

Interior Linemen: Ndamukong Suh, Miami; Calais Campbell, Arizona, and Gerald McCoy, Tampa Bay

Linebackers: Lorenzo Alexander, Buffalo; Luke Kuechly, Carolina; Lavonte David, Tampa Bay, C.J. Mosley, Baltimore, Zach Brown, Buffalo, Zachary Orr, Baltimore, Alec Ogletree, Los Angeles, Dont'a Hightower, New England, Whitney Mercilus, Houston, and Bernardick McKinney, Houston

Cornerbacks: Janoris Jenkins, New York Giants; Casey Hayward, San Diego, and Malcolm Butler, New England

Safeties: Ha Ha Clinton-Dix, Green Bay; Devin McCourty, New England. Defensive Back_Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie, New York Giants

SPECIAL TEAMS

Placekicker — None.

Punter — Marquette King, Oakland

Kick Returner — Tyler Lockett, Seattle Punt Returner — None.

Special Teamer — Nate Ebner, New England

I would have liked to have seen Clowney on the first team.

2016 AP All-Pro Team Voting
By The Associated Press
January 6, 2017 12:14 pm
NEW YORK (AP) — Results of The Associated Press 2016 NFL All-Pro balloting selected by a national panel of 50 media members:

OFFENSE
Quarterback
Matt Ryan, Atlanta, 29; Tom Brady, New England, 15; Aaron Rodgers, Green Bay, 5; Derek Carr, Oakland, 1.

Running Backs
Ezekiel Elliott, Dallas, 47; David Johnson, Arizona, 3.

Tight End
Travis Kelce, Kansas City, 44; Greg Olsen, Carolina, 5; Rob Gronkowski, New England, 1.

Wide Receivers
Antonio Brown, Pittsburgh, 43; Julio Jones, Atlanta, 30; Odell Beckham Jr., New York Giants, 16; Mike Evans, Tampa Bay, 6; Jordy Nelson, Green Bay 5.

Flex
David Johnson, Arizona, 24; Le’Veon Bell, Pittsburgh, 18; Odell Beckham Jr., New York Giants, 3; Antonio Brown, Pittsburgh, 1; Larry Fitzgerald, Arizona, 1; LeSean McCoy, Buffalo, 1; Jarvis Landry, Miami, 1; Travis Kelce, Kansas City, 1.

Left Tackle
Tyron Smith, Dallas, 27; David Bakhtiari, Green Bay, 8; Joe Thomas, Cleveland, 7; Trent Williams, Washington, 3; Jason Peters, Philadelphia, 2; Taylor Lewan, Tennessee, 1; Donald Penn, Oakland, 1; Andrew Whitworth, Cincinnati, 1.

Right Tackle
Jack Conklin, Tennessee, 27 1-2; Mitchell Schwartz, Kansas City, 6; Marcus Cannon, New England, 6; Bryan Bulaga, Green Bay, 5 1-2; Zach Strief, New Orleans, 2; Ryan Schraeder, Atlanta, 2; Marcus Gilbert, Pittsburgh, 1; Left Guards

Kelechi Osemele, Oakland, 47; Marshal Yanda, Baltimore, 2; James Carpenter, New York Jets, 1. Right Guard

Zack Martin, Dallas, 40; David DeCastro, Pittsburgh, 5; Marshal Yanda, Baltimore, 4; Kevin Zeitler, Cincinnati, 1.

Center
Travis Frederick, Dallas, 29; Alex Mack, Atlanta, 14; Rodney Hudson, Oakland, 5; Maurkice Pouncey, Pittsburgh, 1, Brandon Linder, Jacksonville, 1.

DEFENSE
Edge Rushers
Khalil Mack, Oakland, 46; Vic Beasley Jr., Atlanta, 30; Cameron Wake, Miami, 3; Olivier Vernon, Miami, 3; Jadeveon Clowney, Houston, 3; Brandon Graham, Philadelphia, 3; Michael Bennett, Seattle, 2; Cameron Jordan, New Orleans, 2; Danielle Hunter, Minnesota, 2; Cliff Avril, Seattle, 2; Everon Griffen, Minnesota, 1; Joey Bosa, San Diego, 1.

Interior Linemen
Aaron Donald, St. Louis, 47; Damon Harrison, New York Giants 16; Ndamukong Suh, Miami, 12; Calais Campbell, Arizona, 7; Gerald McCoy, Tampa Bay, 7; Fletcher Cox, Philadelphia, 6; Geno Atkins, Cincinnati, 5.

Linebackers-z
Bobby Wagner, Seattle, 48; Von Miller, Denver, 47; Sean Lee, Dallas, 41; Lorenzo Alexander, Buffalo, 4; Luke Kuechly, Carolina, 2; C.J. Mosley, Baltimore, 1; Zach Brown, Buffalo, 1; Zachary Orr, Baltimore, 1; Alec Ogletree, Los Angeles, 1; Dont’a Hightower, New England, 1; Bernardick McKinney, Houston, 1; Lavonte David, Tampa Bay, 1; Whitney Mercilus, Houston, 1.

Cornerbacks
Aqib Talib, Denver, 27; Marcus Peters, Kansas City, 23; Janoris Jenkins, New York Giants, 17; Malcolm Butler, New England, 8; Casey Hayward, San Diego, 8; Richard Sherman, Seattle, 7; Xavier Rhodes, Minnesota, 5; Chris Harris Jr., Denver, 4; Dominique-Rodgers-Cromartie, New York Giants, 1.

Safeties
Landon Collins, New York Giants, 47; Eric Berry, Kansas City, 31; Devin McCourty, New England, 4; Ha Ha Clinton-Dix, Green Bay, 4; Earl Thomas, Seattle, 3; Harrison Smith, Minnesota, 3; Reggie Nelson, Cincinnati, 2; Kam Chancellor, Seattle, 2; Malcolm Jenkins, Philadelphia, 1; Eric Weddle, Baltimore, 1; Quintin Demps, Houston, 1; Darian Stewart, Denver, 1.

Defensive Back
Chris Harris Jr., Denver, 14; Dominique-Rodgers-Cromartie, New York Giants, 6; Malcolm Butler, New England, 5; Eric Berry, Kansas City, 3; Casey Hayward, San Diego, 3; Malcolm Jenkins, Philadelphia, 3; Patrick Peterson, Arizona, 2; Marcus Peters, Kansas City, 2; Xavier Rhodes, Minnesota, 2; Ha Ha Clinton-Dix, Green Bay, 2; Janoris Jenkins, New York Giants, 2; Aqib Talib, Denver, 1; Darius Slay, Detroit, 1; Devin McCourty, New England, 1; Brent Grimes, Tampa Bay, 1; Richard Sherman, Seattle, 1; Eric Weddle, San Diego, 1.

SPECIAL TEAMS
Placekicker
Justin Tucker, Baltimore, 50.

Punter
Johnny Hekker, Los Angeles, 42; Marquette King, Oakland, 4; Pat McAfee, Indianapolis, 2; Brad Wing, New York Giants, 1; Sam Martin, Detroit, 1.

Kick Returner
Cordarrelle Patterson, Minnesota, 41; Tyler Lockett, Seattle, 5; Tyreek Hill, Kansas City, 5.

Punt Returner
Tyreek Hill, Kansas City, 50.

Special Teamer
Matthew Slater, New England, 14; Nate Ebner, New England, 12; Dwayne Harris, New York Giants, 6; Justin Bethel, Arizona, 3; Matt Develin, New England, 3; Michael Thomas, Miami, 3; Chase Reynolds, Los Angeles, 3; Eric Murray, Kansas City, 2; Chris Maragos, Philadelphia, 1; Eric Weems, Atlanta, 1; Josh Bellamy, Chicago, 1.

I fully appreciate what they were trying to do, but this is ridiculous. They defined through defensive positions but clearly not the Flex. Johnson as #1 Flex and #2 RB is as bad as Mack last year. Von should've been edge. Apparently because of the ridiculous way they say the next 3 LB's after the starter are 2nd team it required a grand total of 1 vote to be second team, seriously.

NWebster wrote:Johnson as #1 Flex and #2 RB is as bad as Mack last year. Von should've been edge. Apparently because of the ridiculous way they say the next 3 LB's after the starter are 2nd team it required a grand total of 1 vote to be second team, seriously.

Flex ended up like I thought with it being a 2nd RB. I agree it's dumb to be "1st-team All-Pro Flex" (<-ha!) & "2nd-team All-Pro RB" ...

... also you can see that if Yanda got one more vote at RG he would have been 2nd-team LG and 2nd-team RG. Which he played both this season (and I personally would have had him 1st-team) but votes should have been counted at one position - like I said they should have done in the past.

As predicted, 4-3 OLB's will continue to be screwed by this 'format' and I don't think it would be too much to say a 4-3 OLB will never/extremely rarely get one of three LB spots with this structure. Funny that Telvin Smith didn't even get a vote, which doesn't surprise me at all considering the voters. Just as I'm not surprised Pouncey got a vote at center ... though I'm more surprised he wasn't 1st-team since he's never been a top-3 center yet has been a lock for 1st or 2nd team in years he hasn't missed all/majority of the season, until this year.

There's other selections I disagree with and/or think there was a better choice but oh well.

I also don't like the CB/S/DB voting. Harris Jr. got 4 votes at CB & 14 votes at DB while Jenkins got 17 votes at CB and 2 votes at DB. Harris Jr. had less votes at CB and less votes total but was 1st-team DB while Jenkins is 2nd-team CB. How does that make sense? Plus, unless they wanted to make the base D for the AP team a nickel defense then there is no need for a 5th DB (only 11 players are on the field at once so a "team" with 12 is stupid) but since they felt they needed another DB why wouldn't they have just created a nickel/slot CB spot?

They went for the most convoluted 'solution' to 'defining' positions and within that they couldn't even put players in the correct created categories (e.g. Von).