Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Why not another CFL thread with the Grey Cup coming up...

Perhaps the all-time 'Holy Trinity' of QBs up north who strictly played their entire careers up there. The 'Sammy Baugh', 'Doug Flutie-precursor', and 'Y.A. Tittle' of the CFL respectively. Where do you rank these three amongst each other and should these three (or one, or two, of them) be mentioned as the 'Holy Trinity' of CFL QBs period considering Moon & Flutie's places in that league's history?

Just wondering, since I am no expert on CFL history, but what kind of QB was Theisman?

74_75_78_79_ wrote:Why not another CFL thread with the Grey Cup coming up...

Perhaps the all-time 'Holy Trinity' of QBs up north who strictly played their entire careers up there. The 'Sammy Baugh', 'Doug Flutie-precursor', and 'Y.A. Tittle' of the CFL respectively. Where do you rank these three amongst each other and should these three (or one, or two, of them) be mentioned as the 'Holy Trinity' of CFL QBs period considering Moon & Flutie's places in that league's history?

Jackie Parker was a offensive triple threat who won the Schenley Most Outstanding Player award three times. I'm not old enough to have seen him play, except a little bit in his abbreviated comeback with BC in 1968, but his legend lives large here in the Great White North (it finally snowed here last night). He was a very good QB, an excellent ball carrier when Canadian Don Getty took the snaps at QB, which was quite often, and also a fine pass receiver. He passed for almost 16,500 yards, ran for 5,200 and caught 135 passes. He also scored 88 TDs. He is probably the greatest all-around offensive player in CFL history but I wouldn't say he's the best pure QB.

Ronnie Lancaster, aka The Little General, was tremendous. A two time MOP award winner, he was the CFL's Fran Tarkenton. Lancaster, who came to Saskatchewan from Ottawa in 1963, and the great fullback, George Reed, kept the Riders in championship contention throughout most of the 60s and 70s. Lancaster held every CFL passing record when he retired after the 1977 season. The only possible knock against him is that he was only able to win one Grey Cup, in 1966 against Russ Jackson and Ottawa. Lancaster actually played more QB for Ottawa in their 1960 championship season than Russ Jackson did. Jackson, however, got the start in the Grey Cup victory over Edmonton. Saskatchewan lost the 1967, 69, 72 and 76 championship games.

Russ Jackson is, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the greatest Canadian player in the history of the game. A three time MOP award winner, he won the Grey Cup in 1960 and in his final two seasons, 1968 and 69. He retired a champion and the reigning MOP after the 1969 Grey Cup game at the young age of 33. His stats in his final season were 193-358-3,641 with 33 TDs and 12 Ints. In Jackson's career he threw for 24,341 yards with 184 TDs and 125 Ints in 2,511 total passes thrown. That's an incredible 9.68 yards per pass attempt. He also rushed for 5,045 yards! By comparison, Lancaster threw for 50,535 yards with 333 TDs and 396 Ints in 6,233 total passes. There are very few QBs who played in the era prior to the 70s who threw more TD passes than interceptions so Jackson's 184-125 ratio is truly marvelous. I would give Jackson the nod as the greatest pure QB to play his whole career in the CFL. Heck, he's probably the second best CFL QB ever, behind only Doug Flutie.

JeffreyMiller wrote:Just wondering, since I am no expert on CFL history, but what kind of QB was Theisman?

Theismann and Greg Barton were signed by Toronto in 1971 after the combination of Don Jonas and Tom Wilkinson failed to get the Argos to the 1970 Grey Cup game. Both signings were big news as Theismann was a Notre Dame hero who finished second to Jim Plunkett in 1970 Heisman voting (A Heisman for Theismann!) and Barton was a hot young prospect who was signed away from the Philadelphia Eagles who had acquired him from Detroit.

The Toronto QB competition wasn't close. Theismann won the job early in the season and led the Argos to an 11-3 record and to the 1971 Grey Cup game against Calgary. The Stampeders won 14-11 on a rain soaked artificial turf field when Leon (X-ray) McQuay fumbled deep in Stampeder territory late in the game. Theismann broke his leg early in the 1972 season and the Argos collapsed to a 3-11 record. He came back in 1973 and played well leading the team to a second place finish with a 7-5-2 record.

As to your question of what kind of QB he was in Toronto; he came in as a raw rookie and probably should have won the Grey Cup. He was pretty much the same guy who played for Washington; a good passer with quick feet, terrific poise and a cockiness that inspired confidence in his teammates. He was very, very good in a short period of time here.

The CFL does a good job celebrating its history (or it just seems that way compared to the NFL) so over the course of watching games over any given season - or for nearly 3 decades in my case - you get to see a lot of highlights and interviews with old players and the announcers are always mentioning past greats ... or having them in the booth (Theismann was on the broadcast for a bit during an Argos game this season) and so on.

In other words, even "down here" you get to know the names and a bit about them. Not all that in the previous post, though. Excellent info, John!

And boy, was Doug Flutie fun to watch. Glad I got to catch the entirety of his CFL career, would be hard to accept that anyone was ever better than he was. I wish I had recorded more CFL games (specifically games he played in) or had just one giant video of his greatest plays because he made some of the most incredible plays I've ever seen week after week and year after year while he was in the CFL.

TSN honored the TOP 50 CFL All-Time Greatest Players in 2006. The Top 10 included 5 QB's (including Jackie Parker):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TSN_Top_50_CFL_Players

- Doug Flutie #1
- Jackie Parker #3 (played multiple positions)
- Warren Moon #5
- Ron Lancaster #7
- Russ Jackson #8

I think Jackson was ranked too low. Based on his CFL accomplishments I would have put him in the top 3 or 4. Agree with JohnH19, I would put him just behind Flutie as the best CFL QB ever. My sense is that Jackson became a "forgotten hero" in Canada after fans in the nation's capital suffered through 17 consecutive non-winning seasons during their final years of existence. Ron Lancaster threw a high number of interceptions, but also won alot of games in Saskatchewan (had over 50 comeback victories with the Roughriders). When Lancaster retired following the '78 season he was nearly 25,000 passing yards ahead of second place Sam Etcheverry. At first glance, his Grey Cup record seems less than impressive, but his overall stats were actually decent for that era:

1960 (Ottawa vs. Edmonton): 1 completion in 4 attempts for 2 yards & no interceptions

1966 (Sask. vs. Ottawa): 10 completions in 20 attempts for 160 yards w/ 3 TD's passing & no interceptions

1967 (Sask. vs. Hamilton): 8 completions in 21 attempts for 119 yards & 3 interceptions

1969 (Sask. vs. Ottawa): 15 completions in 30 attempts for 239 yards w/1 TD passing & 1 interception

1972 (Sask. vs. Hamilton): 20 completions in 29 attempts for 239 yards w/1 TD passing & 2 interceptions

1976 (Sask. vs. Ottawa): 22 completions in 35 attempts for 263 yards w/2 TD's passing & no interceptions

Totals: 76/139 (54.7%) for 1022 yards w/ 7 TD's passing & 6 interceptions

I think Lancaster's 1966 performance speaks for itself and he called a great game that day. In 1967 the Tiger Cats had one of the best defensive teams in CFL history (they pounded Ottawa 37-3 in the two game total points East Final). In 1969 the Riders were again beaten by the better team, one that was determined to send QB Russ Jackson and Head Coach Frank Clair out a winner (George Reed ran for less than 30 yards that day). In 1972 Lancaster & Co. had to play the Grey Cup on Hamilton's home turf and got screwed by a Dave Fleming touchdown reception that should never have counted. Replays showed that Fleming failed to get a foot in the endzone when he came down with the ball and the 'Riders wound up losing, 13-10. In 1976 Lancaster played his butt off and should have went out a winner, but he was hampered by the lack of a rushing attack after Molly McGee got hurt in the 2nd quarter (and of course the defense didn't get any pressure on Tom Clements during Ottawa's last drive).

Here are 10 of Lancaster's main contemporaries from the 1960's & '70's:

Jackie Parker (1954-65, 1968): 123 INT's / 88 TD Passes (MOP 1958 & 1960 as QB)
Bernie Faloney (1954, 1957-1967): 201 INT's / 151 TD Passes (MOP 1961)
Joe Kapp (1959-1966): 130 INT's / 136 TD Passes
Ken Ploen (1957-1967): 106 INT's / 119 TD Passes (MOP 1965)
Russ Jackson (1958-1969): 125 INT's / 185 TD Passes (MOP 1963, '66, '69)
Peter Liske (1965-68; 1973-1975): 133 INT's / 130 TD Passes (MOP 1967)
Jerry Keeling (1961-1975): 158 INT's / 119 TD Passes
Don Jonas (1970-1974): 130 INT's / 98 TD Passes (MOP 1971)
Tom Wilkinson (1967-1981): 126 INT's / 154 TD Passes (MOP 1974)
Dieter Brock (1974-1984): 158 INT's / 210 TD Passes (MOP 1980, 1981)

Only Jonas & Liske aren't in the Hall of Fame.

Most Selections - CFL ALL-Star QB 1960's & 1970's:

Ron Lancaster (4): 1970, 1973, 1975, 1976
Russ Jackson (3): 1966, 1968, 1969
Tom Wilkinson (3): 1974, 1978, 1979

Most Seasons leading CFL in passing yards 1960's & 1970's:

Ron Lancaster (5): 1966, 1970, 1973, 1975, 1976, 1977
Joe Kapp (4): 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965
Peter Liske (3): 1967, 1968, 1974

During Grey Cup week in 1993, the CFL Alumni Association named it's All-Time All-Star Team (banquet was later released on VHS). Lancaster was chosen as QB and Jackie Parker was named as the Most Outstanding Player:

Where does Anthony Calvillo fit in the CFL alltime quarterback list?

I watched Damon Allen in 2002 at Vancouver when he was a member of the BC Lions and I was impressed even that he was nearly 40 years old at the time. Where he would Rank in the all-time CFL QBs?

Calvillo is the best of the last 20 years and would rank high on the list of great CFL QBs...possibly top five. An updated TSN Top 50 list would have him near the top.

Damon Allen was certainly a great one but, like his former Edmonton teammate, Matt Dunigan, he played for so many teams that it's difficult to associate him with a specific franchise. I think that works against both him and Dunigan when trying to rank them against other QBs. Having said that, Allen does rank very high on the TSN list at No. 14. Dunigan is No. 39.

The first two great QBs of the post-1950 "modern" era were "Indian" Jack Jacobs in Winnipeg and Sam "the Rifle" Etcheverry in Montreal. Both put up incredible passing numbers in the 50s but neither won a Grey Cup. Jacobs lost the 1950 "Mud Bowl" to Toronto and the 1953 game to Hamiltion. Etcheverry went 0 for 3 in Grey Cups, all against Edmonton in 1954, 55 and 56. He finally won one as the Alouettes' head coach in 1970. Jacobs was voted in as a charter member of the Canadian Football Hall of Fame in 1963 and Etcheverry was selected in 1969. Etcheverry is No. 26 on the TSN list.

Tom Clements is the only other pure QB on the TSN list. He is No. 47.

Historically, what CFL QB's career best compares to that of Steve DeBerg?

Hmmm...DeBerg was a decent, functional QB who played for several teams and had a long career. He had one tremendous season (1990 in KC) and many middling ones. Off the top of my head, I might compare him to John Hufnagel and Joe Paopao...guys that hung around for an extended period but were rarely great.

I'll try to come up with some others.