The first touchdowns in Cardinal and Packer history

[Todd Pence]

These are the only two of the 32 current franchises of which the identity of the player who scored the first touchdown in franchise history is unknown.

The Chicago Cardinals first game as a member of what was then known as the American Professional Football Association was a scoreless tie with the Chicago Tigers. Their next matchup was with some club known as "Moline Universal Tractors", which does not appear to have been an APFA member, although the game counted in the standings for the Cards. The Cardinals won that contest 33-0, although apparently no detailed game account survives. And the identity of the player who scored the Cards first touchdown remains a mystery.
The first Cardinal credited with a touchdown came in game 4, against the Detroit Heralds. Future basketball coaching legend Lenny Sachs got it on a blocked punt return.

Green Bay's first season in the AFPA came a year later, in 1921. The Packers won a 7-6 contest over the Minneapolis Marines in their first league game. However, while a game account claims that the winning touchdown came on a "four-yard run", it does not identify the player that scored. End Billy Dumoe would be the first player to be credited with a touchdown two weeks later in a win over the Evansville Crimson Giants.

[TodMaher]

These are the only two of the 32 current franchises of which the identity of the player who scored the first touchdown in franchise history is unknown.

Green Bay's first season in the AFPA came a year later, in 1921. The Packers won a 7-6 contest over the Minneapolis Marines in their first league game. However, while a game account claims that the winning touchdown came on a "four-yard run", it does not identify the player that scored. End Billy Dumoe would be the first player to be credited with a touchdown two weeks later in a win over the Evansville Crimson Giants.

Not sure what game account you are referencing, but the Green Bay Press-Gazette clearly lists in the "box" for the game "Touchdowns, Schmael, Dvorak." Also,
"Klaus snapped the ball to Schmael. There was as fierce a scrimmage as ever staged on a gridiron and when the players were pulled off, Schmael was over the goal line. Joy ruled supreme."

[Todd Pence]

Ah! Thanks for that.

So now we still don't know who scored the first touchdown in Cardinal history. Was that game against the "Tractor" even a legit contest?

[JuggernautJ]

...There was as fierce a scrimmage as ever staged on a gridiron and when the players were pulled off, Schmael was over the goal line. Joy ruled supreme."

Ya just don't see writin' like that no more...
...nor names like that, neither.

[Bob Gill]

So now we still don't know who scored the first touchdown in Cardinal history. Was that game against the "Tractor" even a legit contest?

For what it's worth, I don't think so.

The thing is, there were no standings in 1920 -- really, none at all -- so you can't really answer the question by seeing whether this or that game counted in the standings. What David Neft assumed when he started compiling records for the early years was that the only official games were the ones played between teams actually in the league, same as now. That's the way he presented the first season in his Sports Encyclopedia: Pro Football. (And it's the way I'd still do it today.)

But Bob Carroll suggested that since there weren't any standings, all the games a team played counted to some degree. So if one contending team lost a game to, let's say, Peoria, that would be a significant blow to their championship hopes, just as a loss to a Division II team would probably knock a college team out of contention for the national championship. He based this on the fact that at the league meeting all the owners VOTED to decide the championship -- well, that and probably another thing or two. Of course they were AWARE of a team's record, but he argued that they weren't bound to go by the record only in LEAGUE games.

Starting from that point, he went on to argue that since all games played by league members "counted" toward the championship, the scoring totals from all of what we'd now call "exhibition games" should also be counted. Apparently he convinced Neft and others, because that's how it was presented in Total Football.

As I said, though, for my money the only games that should count in the "stats" are the ones between NFL members, so I wouldn't count the game against the Tractors at all. I'd go with that TD against Detroit as their first.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Bob, I know this is off topic, but since we're talking about the 20s.....

Do you or does anyone know if anyone ever got a hold of any of the raw data Neft et. al. used to compile their unofficial statistics? I'd love to try to say reconstruct a player's rushing totals game by game, but only the totals are provided. And no bibliography unfortunately at least in my version of the Football Encyclopedia which shows "copyright 1991, 1994". There's an acknowledgements section, but it lists libraries not individual newspapers. Thanks, John

[ChrisBabcock]

But, do you or does anyone know if anyone ever got a hold of any of the raw data Neft et. al. used to compile their unofficial statistics?

I've always wondered the same about this site...

http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/stats.nsf

My assumption was that someone meticulously pored over game summaries in old newspapers.

[Bob Gill]

Bob, I know this is off topic, but since we're talking about the 20s.....

But, do you or does anyone know if anyone ever got a hold of any of the raw data Neft et. al. used to compile their unofficial statistics? I'd love to try to say reconstruct a player's rushing totals game by game, but only the totals are provided. And no bibliography unfortunately at least in my version of the Football Encyclopedia which shows "copyright 1991, 1994". There's an acknowledgements section, but it lists libraries not individual newspapers. Thanks, John

I presume David Neft still has the sheets he used in compiling those stats, but I don't know if anybody's ever seen them. I guess Bob Carroll probably did, and maybe Joe Horrigan or somebody like that. I think Neft once sent me copies of his sheets for a couple of games in 1934 that I'd asked him about, but that's all I've ever seen, and I might not even be remembering that right.

[TanksAndSpartans]

Thanks Chris - I've seen that site - I think the owner just organized the information into a database - I don't think it contains anything that isn't in the book. I'm not trying to criticize the site, but I don't think the focus is on the "pre-statistical" period and I did find a few errors from that period, so I just use Bob's article:

Vol. 14, No. 2 (1992) Statistical Leaders of the ‘20s http://www.profootballresearchers.org/a ... 02-453.pdf

since he accurately compiled the statistics for us.

Thanks Bob. I was interested in the 1924 Frankford season. I have the scrapbook from the historical society, but its all photos and articles and I suspect they weren't the best articles available for statistics - I mean sure you can fish out so and so had a 35 yard run, but if all you had was the scrapbook I don't think you'd get close to the statistics published in the encyclopedia. I'd love to see a list of newspapers used and/or game by game statistics. I'm not finding any availability for 1924 Philadelphia newspapers online though.

[Bob Gill]

Thanks Bob. I was interested in the 1924 Frankford season. I have the scrapbook from the historical society, but its all photos and articles and I suspect they weren't the best articles available for statistics - I mean sure you can fish out so and so had a 35 yard run, but if all you had was the scrapbook I don't think you'd get close to the statistics published in the encyclopedia. I'd love to see a list of newspapers used and/or game by game statistics. I'm not finding any availability for 1924 Philadelphia newspapers online though.

I've seen that scrapbook, and I did the same thing you did: I glanced at the articles, hoping to see a lot of plays detailed and so on, but didn't find much. I'm sure Neft's stuff came from newspapers, but you never know which one -- and there were A LOT of them in those days. I saw an article once, I think under glass in an exhibit at the Hall of Fame, about a 1926 Philadelphia Quakers game, and it had quite a bit of almost play-by-play reportage. But I couldn't see what the paper was, so I never knew where to look for more of the same.

My understanding is that Neft went through every single paper, or just about, and occasionally came across a gold mine.

Now that I think of it, you might be able to write to him one way or another and ask which paper he found most useful for the Yellowjackets in 1924. He might still have that information somewhere.