Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Regarding Jimmy Johnson’s candidacy for HOF, some people who oppose his induction (see Johnson-Dungy HOF thread) point to his stint with the Dolphins as evidence against. It was a winning tenure, so not sure I follow the logic.

But it got me thinking. How many men have coached at least two teams and achieved a winning W-L record with more than one? Is Johnson unique, or is his achievement more common than I surmised?

Since 1920, roughly 480 men have coached at least one game in the AAFC, AFL, and what we now call the NFL. But only 112 men of those men coached at least 10 games with two or more teams. Out of that group, only 28 achieved a better than .500 regular season W-L record with at least two teams.

I made a chart showing coaches (NFL, AFL, AAFC) since 1920 who have
A) coached at least 10 games with two or more teams, and
B) have a winning regular season record with at least two of them

It showed:

1 - the coaches
2 - teams they coached
3 - number of teams coached at least ten games
4 - number of teams led to better than .500 record (total)
5 - title game appearances
6 - title game wins
7 - title game appearances with more than one team, yes or no
8 - title game wins more than one team, yes or no

(Clarification: For teams who played before the title game era, I counted 2nd place in the standings as a title game appearance, 1st place as a title game win.)

Admittedly, this coaching assessment is slanted toward W-L record, title game wins, and title game appearances. It doesn’t contemplate innovations, influence, coaching tree, etc.

Finally, I did this quickly and didn’t spend a lot of time spot checking my work. There could be errors.

***

Unfortunately, I made a great chart but this forum wouldn't allow it to be posted or uploaded.

The 28 names are:
-V. Lombardi
-G. Chamberlain
-J. Conzelman
-R. Flaherty
-B. Parcells
-D. Shula
-B. Parker
-T. Coughlin
-J. Johnson
-D. Vermeil
-M. Holmgren
-P. Carroll
-B. Shaw
-T. Dungy
-J. Gruden
-J. Fox
-R. Andrews
-D. Degroot
-G. Allen
-J. Caldwell
-A. Reid
-M. Schottenheimer
-C. Knox
-W. Phillips
-P. Driscoll
-D. Coryell
-J. Sutherland
-R. Meyer

Of the above group, the coaches with title game appearances with more than one team are:
-G. Chamberlain
-J. Conzelman
-R. Flaherty
-B. Parcells
-D. Shula
-B. Shaw
-D. Vermeil
-M. Holmgren
-J. Fox

Of the subset above, the coaches who won titles with more than one team are:
-Chamberlain
-Conzelman

Remember, the key here is the coach must've had a winning tenure with the second (or third, fourth, etc) team. That's why people like Weeb Ewbank don't show up. He won a title with the Jets, but his overall record was under .500.

Anyone interested in the chart is welcome to it, assuming they can advise how to post it or are willing to provide an email address.

Flaherty won a championship with only the Redskins. (or so I thought?)

ChrisBabcock wrote:Flaherty won a championship with only the Redskins. (or so I thought?)

Yep, you're right. My error. His Yankees made a title game appearance but lost.

That's why I wish I was able to post the chart I made rather than eyeball the names and quickly list them. Thanks for catching that.

Chamberlin's teams didn't appear in any championship games, because they didn't have such things in the 1920s. He did win titles with more than one team, though -- two or three, depending on how you count the 1924 championship.

I don't think Conzelman had two different teams in title games either. The Cardinals got there, of course, but his Providence champs in 1928 had the same problem as Chamberlin's teams, as far as championship games go.

Oh, and who's R. Andrews? Unless I'm missing something, the only guy I can think of is Roy Andrews, who wouldn't qualify because a) he coached before the championship games started, and b) never finished first, either.

Good - quick - info V_ya. I've posted about Johnson (re: Miami) for years on our forums, glad at least one other person "gets it" and goes with facts as opposed to narratives, myths, and fallacies.

Bob Gill wrote:Chamberlin's teams didn't appear in any championship games, because they didn't have such things in the 1920s. He did win titles with more than one team, though -- two or three, depending on how you count the 1924 championship.

I don't think Conzelman had two different teams in title games either. The Cardinals got there, of course, but his Providence champs in 1928 had the same problem as Chamberlin's teams, as far as championship games go.

Oh, and who's R. Andrews? Unless I'm missing something, the only guy I can think of is Roy Andrews, who wouldn't qualify because a) he coached before the championship games started, and b) never finished first, either.

They didn't have championship games in the 1920s? You don't say. Uh...maybe that's why I included this sentence in my original post:

(Clarification: For teams who played before the title game era, I counted 2nd place in the standings as a title game appearance, 1st place as a title game win.)

My chart. My critiera.

And you say Chamberlain won titles with more than one team? Uh...maybe that's why I included him among the group of people who won titles with more than one team in my original post.

By the way, "Brady sucks!"

D'oh!

Reaser wrote:Good - quick - info V_ya. I've posted about Johnson (re: Miami) for years on our forums, glad at least one other person "gets it" and goes with facts as opposed to narratives, myths, and fallacies.

Thanks Reaser.

Here's another quick and dirty pull...Johnson was one of only 13 men to coach at least 60 games with two or more teams and achieve a better than .500 record with more than one of them. Here's what I came up with:

Marty Schottenheimer
Chuck Knox
Tom Coughlin
Bill Parcells
George Allen
Jimmy Johnson
Jon Gruden
Dick Vermeil
Mike Holmgren
Don Coryell
Tony Dungy
Don Shula
John Fox

Of this group, only Schottenheimer, Knox, Allen, Coryell, and Fox didn't win titles.

And only Johnson, Parcells, Shula, and Coughlin won more than one title.

Pretty select company.

Here's the chart...hope this works.

Viewed in this light, Johnson's tenure with the Dolphins actually solidifies his HOF case rather than detracting from it.

It also confirmed something about coaches that I've often thought about players: success is often a case of being in the right place at the right time.

Success in two places is rare, and is evidence that the first situation wasn't just a case of fortuitous timing. Those who achieve it are special.