Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

If you had to pick one and eliminate 2 who would you choose? The innovator? The winner? Maybe a combo of both?

JohnTurney wrote:If you had to pick one and eliminate 2 who would you choose? The innovator? The winner? Maybe a combo of both?

I would pick Coryell. He turned around two terrible franchises while working for two of the most ridiculous owners in NFL history. I don't think Johnson coached long enough to warrant induction, and this will probably sound stupid, but I would be more inclined to enshirne Johnson if he had more success with the Dolphins. Dungy is weird to me, because he was usually portrayed as holding his team back with his conservative philosophy. He made Tampa a consistent winner, but was kind of handed an elite team with Indy. I view Dungy as being Chuck Knox if Knox had Peyton Manning instead of Dave Krieg and Joe Ferguson.

Bryan wrote:

JohnTurney wrote:If you had to pick one and eliminate 2 who would you choose? The innovator? The winner? Maybe a combo of both?

I would pick Coryell. He turned around two terrible franchises while working for two of the most ridiculous owners in NFL history. I don't think Johnson coached long enough to warrant induction, and this will probably sound stupid, but I would be more inclined to enshirne Johnson if he had more success with the Dolphins. Dungy is weird to me, because he was usually portrayed as holding his team back with his conservative philosophy. He made Tampa a consistent winner, but was kind of handed an elite team with Indy. I view Dungy as being Chuck Knox if Knox had Peyton Manning instead of Dave Krieg and Joe Ferguson.

Well, Dungy was "kind of handed an elite team" that went 6-10 and finished 31st in defense the previous year. They improved to 10-6 and 7th in defense in his first season.

I'd eliminate Coryell first. Forced to eliminate a second, I'd take out Dungy, although he's deserving.

Johnson will have a tough time getting in, but he's one of the greatest in my book. A shooting star that came and went, but boy did he do some great things.

In five years he took one of the dregs of the league and made a back to back SB champion out of them, and basically did it by himself. He was the de facto GM in Dallas, and the major talent spotter. He also was one of the first guys to masterfully build a team in the salary cap era.

Even if he did nothing but coach, he would still warrant consideration. How many people have won back to back SBs?

And he built his team so well that another guy won a SB with his team. It's a shame they couldn't work things out long term.

Not sure there's another coach out there who did all he did in five short years.

Dungy doesn't do much for me.

Unlike judging players (QB's) by W/L record or by 'rings', in a TEAM sport, I've always felt coaches should be judged by that. That's the goal, to win. To be among the 'elite' (HOF), I look at a two league championships minimum - knowing that it would leave many coaches off the list with that criteria. Johnson is the only one who meets that, so that's who I would go with.

That said, I'm a huge Coryell fan. I love innovation but I struggle with how to honor that - in terms of the HOF. Does innovation make one a HOF'er? (then wouldn't Pete Gogolak be a HOF'er?) ... At a minimum there should be a large display inside the PFHOF dedicated to Coryell. Definitely wouldn't mind if he got inducted, but it's not really how I view the HOF which to me should be for the greatest players (determined on the field) and for greatest coaches (determined by winning) ...

rhickok1109 wrote:

Bryan wrote:

JohnTurney wrote:If you had to pick one and eliminate 2 who would you choose? The innovator? The winner? Maybe a combo of both?

I would pick Coryell. He turned around two terrible franchises while working for two of the most ridiculous owners in NFL history. I don't think Johnson coached long enough to warrant induction, and this will probably sound stupid, but I would be more inclined to enshirne Johnson if he had more success with the Dolphins. Dungy is weird to me, because he was usually portrayed as holding his team back with his conservative philosophy. He made Tampa a consistent winner, but was kind of handed an elite team with Indy. I view Dungy as being Chuck Knox if Knox had Peyton Manning instead of Dave Krieg and Joe Ferguson.

Well, Dungy was "kind of handed an elite team" that went 6-10 and finished 31st in defense the previous year. They improved to 10-6 and 7th in defense in his first season.

In that 6-10 season which was the last of Mora's Colts tenure, they were 3-3 with Edgerrin James (2 losses to champion New England), and 3-7 without James. They had gone 10-6 and 13-3 the previous two seasons. I would guess the 6-10 record in 2001 wasn't really indicitive of the talent on the roster. Dungy improved the defense, but I would guess that the 2002 Colts could have duplicated their 10-6 record and 41-0 first round playoff exit to the Jets under Mora. If nothing else, a 41-0 playoff loss sounds like something a Mora team would do.

Regarding Dungy (and this doesn't necessarily make him hall of fame worthy), one of the things that's overlooked about him is his game plan vs. the Greatest Show on Turf Rams in the 1999 NFC Championship Game. The Rams had three defeats that year, but Dungy was the first guy whose defense completely shut that team down. The Bucs lost the game because of their offense (and still might have won if not for a bad call).

The significance of this is Bill Belichick gets all the credit and acclaim for designing the defense that beat the Rams in the 2001 Super Bowl, but he did it on Dungy's blueprint.

Great defensive coach, and his work in Tampa overall was great.

My vote goes to Coryell. I just wish that he was still alive to experience the honor.

Joe Zagorski

Dungy because of the excellent W-L pct, some postseason success, fine assistant coaching, and innovator status (first successful coach of color, Tampa-2 originator). On the fence with Coryell (has innovator credit but just okay W-L pct and no postseason success). Johnson's career strikes me as too short with a too-short peak.

Veeshik_ya wrote:Regarding Dungy (and this doesn't necessarily make him hall of fame worthy), one of the things that's overlooked about him is his game plan vs. the Greatest Show on Turf Rams in the 1999 NFC Championship Game. The Rams had three defeats that year, but Dungy was the first guy whose defense completely shut that team down. The Bucs lost the game because of their offense (and still might have won if not for a bad call).

The significance of this is Bill Belichick gets all the credit and acclaim for designing the defense that beat the Rams in the 2001 Super Bowl, but he did it on Dungy's blueprint.

Great defensive coach, and his work in Tampa overall was great.

That 1999 NFC Championship game was a forgotten classic, the only 11-6 game in NFL history. However, the next year the two teams met on Monday night in week 16. Instead of it being a defensive nail-biter like the year before, the Bucs played the Rams kind of game and pulled out a 38-35 win in a shootout that was also another great game. The 2000 season was in my opinion the best season for MNF in terms of the games played, and this one was one of the reasons.