Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

....today in eric goska's column at packersnews.com is an example of his superb research and a stat that at least some would find interesting. you might want to check it out?

That's awesome, I'd have never guessed to even look in to that one.

Nelson might be one of the most under-rated players in the entire game today. He's so efficient, lots of catches, lots of yards, but fewer targets than some of his peers. Why is that? Do we all assume it's Aaron Rogers' greatness, is it (as Jason Sehorn might have suggested) reverse racism - how could a white guy be that good a wideout? Who knows, but I wish my team had him, he's fantastic, and like the best pass catcher for my team, I think the key is he maintains speed in and out of breaks.

NWebster wrote:That's awesome, I'd have never guessed to even look in to that one.

Nelson might be one of the most under-rated players in the entire game today. He's so efficient, lots of catches, lots of yards, but fewer targets than some of his peers. Why is that? Do we all assume it's Aaron Rogers' greatness, is it (as Jason Sehorn might have suggested) reverse racism - how could a white guy be that good a wideout? Who knows, but I wish my team had him, he's fantastic, and like the best pass catcher for my team, I think the key is he maintains speed in and out of breaks.

I've been promoting Nelson for a few years now, but I think maybe he's finally getting his due recognition this year because of a couple of good games on national TV.

I think he's been underrated mainly because he's always one of two or three good receivers. First he was #3 behind Jennings and Jones, then Jennings left and Cobb took over. This year, it's pretty much Nelson and Cobb, so it's a lot harder to ignore him.

What I really - REALLY - like about Nelson coming out of college was not his speed or hands, but rather on highlight video he was always a north-south runner after the catch. No dancing, rarely even a cut, he seemed to and continues to go with the shortest line between him and the goal mentality. Perhaps he had a particularly influencial math teacher somewhere along the way.

And that straight-ahead mode makes his speed look all the more impressive.

Eric's column on pick 6's had a lot of interesting information.

re: Nelson being underrated. Maybe 3-4 years ago? He had all those stats in 2011 so I would assume most became aware of him then, if they weren't already - especially as Ron points out, he was or should have been a known player at and coming out of K-State.

Suppose it depends on who one has conversations with about football or where one consumes their football 'news' on whether he's overrated/underrated or not. Probably would agree media wise, he's somewhat underrated, but it's not like he's been unknown. Perhaps the thinking is that he's getting talked about more because he's having his best season - though the drop in Buffalo was bad.

Reaser wrote:Eric's column on pick 6's had a lot of interesting information.

re: Nelson being underrated. Maybe 3-4 years ago? He had all those stats in 2011 so I would assume most became aware of him then, if they weren't already - especially as Ron points out, he was or should have been a known player at and coming out of K-State.

Suppose it depends on who one has conversations with about football or where one consumes their football 'news' on whether he's overrated/underrated or not. Probably would agree media wise, he's somewhat underrated, but it's not like he's been unknown. Perhaps the thinking is that he's getting talked about more because he's having his best season - though the drop in Buffalo was bad.

Certainly. I've considered him a top 3-7 WR in each of the last few seasons. But other than Calvin Johnson, is there anybody you wouldn't have a good argument about? Andre Johnson is so consistent, physical, etc, Larry Fitzgerald has awesome hands, play to play motor, etc (loosing a step now perhaps), Antonio Brown is tearing it up right now due to his ability to majntai. Speed in and out of cuts (a Jordy skill as well). But wow, if you could have got him in trade a couple years ago, I think you'd have won the deal whatever was in return. He was so clearly a 3 that could be a 1. I suppose it must've been like watching John Stallworth in 1976.

And - of course - Eric's articles are always well researched and well written. I strive for the former and struggle for the latter.

Brown is my favorite to watch this season. Excellent football player. There's also Dez, Julio, Demaryius Thomas to go with the guys you listed. Young guys like Hilton, plus it's going to be exciting to see how the great rookies progress over the years, Watkins, Evans, Beckham and so on.

If there's a GB WR underrated I would think it would be Cobb, since Nelson is getting the attention - as he should - but Cobb moves the chains and has had some great catches this season.

It's a cynical take but I've thought since roughly their SB year that the Packers were merely just the best at taking advantage of the era of no pass defense allowed. In the context of the times their passing game is impressive to say the least, especially vertically. Though watching Nelson, a great straight line runner, run unmolested and Rodgers who's accurate anyways and is even more so since he's not allowed to be touched, complete passes for long gains isn't as impressive - to me - as it would be if it were being done in a different era. Not their fault or a complaint reserved just for them, and good for them for being the or among the best at taking advantage of it, but it's not as impressive as playing defense in an era where you're essentially not allowed to play defense, or being a running team in an era where the easy way is to throw the ball every play and take advantage of the era. It's all cheapened, in a way, for me.

NWebster wrote:

Reaser wrote:Eric's column on pick 6's had a lot of interesting information.

re: Nelson being underrated. Maybe 3-4 years ago? He had all those stats in 2011 so I would assume most became aware of him then, if they weren't already - especially as Ron points out, he was or should have been a known player at and coming out of K-State.

Suppose it depends on who one has conversations with about football or where one consumes their football 'news' on whether he's overrated/underrated or not. Probably would agree media wise, he's somewhat underrated, but it's not like he's been unknown. Perhaps the thinking is that he's getting talked about more because he's having his best season - though the drop in Buffalo was bad.

Certainly. I've considered him a top 3-7 WR in each of the last few seasons. But other than Calvin Johnson, is there anybody you wouldn't have a good argument about? Andre Johnson is so consistent, physical, etc, Larry Fitzgerald has awesome hands, play to play motor, etc (loosing a step now perhaps), Antonio Brown is tearing it up right now due to his ability to majntai. Speed in and out of cuts (a Jordy skill as well). But wow, if you could have got him in trade a couple years ago, I think you'd have won the deal whatever was in return. He was so clearly a 3 that could be a 1. I suppose it must've been like watching John Stallworth in 1976.

Don't totally disagree. That said, is the "back-shoulder" pass as a strategy just one more advance in the game, or in-part a function of the flag football era? I think a little of both. The back shoulder itself doesn't exploit this era, but it is certainly set up by the fact that as a wideout presses a corner deep, a corner has to turn and run without really the option of being physical.

I say this because Rogers and the receivers he trusts have really perfected the back shoulder in a way that nobody else - to this point - has. As the counter-factual, Big Ben is having a great season, but I cannot remember a single back shoulder throw all year.

A year ago I watched every single 1994 49er game to watch use and effectiveness of Deion. I came away - I know this sounds crazy - being stunned by how physical Deion was with the guys he was covering. This isn't to say he was a physical guy, though he was bigger than most remember, but the style of Cornerback play has just changed SOOO greatly over those 20 years that it almost seems like a different position.

NWebster wrote:Don't totally disagree. That said, is the "back-shoulder" pass as a strategy just one more advance in the game, or in-part a function of the flag football era? I think a little of both.

A year ago I watched every single 1994 49er game to watch use and effectiveness of Deion. I came away - I know this sounds crazy - being stunned by how physical Deion was with the guys he was covering.

NFL Films Presents had a solid piece on the "back-shoulder" earlier this year. I can buy that it's "a little of both." Of course it wasn't meant as a shot at the respective skill levels of any of the players, specifically Rodgers or Nelson, it's just a hugely disappointing byproduct of the era. The good offensive players would likely still be good, just not as productive. I want to see someone like Suh with the shackles off, let's see him try to break Rodgers in half, then see if Rodgers gets up, and if he's still as accurate the next play.

I remember you mentioning '94 Deion after I had pointed out how misinformed the media and general public are about his 'shadowing' of the opponents best. Not surprised at all by his physicality, he was and is my favorite player of 'all-time' (100% favorite non-Seahawks, right there with Easley as favorite regardless) ... even argued and won the debate with my coaches on allowing me to wear #21 as a QB in youth football (argument solely being "Deion Sanders is my favorite player and I'm wearing #21") ... Unfortunately, once I got to middle school I "had to" wear a Quarterback number.