Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

I am gladly surprised that Mike Kenn made it. Although I believe he won't get elected this year (and maybe never) he deserves to advance. William Andrews and Gerald Riggs had great seasons with him blocking.

Seems like this year has a lot of "bubble" guys who have been in the running the last few years. Atwater, Tim Brown, Coryell, Kevin Greene, Haley, Jacoby, Lynch, Shields.

I think Seau and Harrison are no-brainers (but I was wrong about Harrison last year), and I have a feeling Kurt Warner gets in.

I think Mike Kenn was great, but I don't see him getting in before Orlando Pace, and even Joe Jacoby probably has more name recognition than Kenn. I would take Kenn over either of those two, though.

Mawae will get in eventually, but probably not this year. He might be on the Dermonti Dawson waiting list.

I don't think Darren Woodson has a chance with Atwater and Lynch on the same ballot.

Mecklenburg and Edgerrin James should be interesting discussions, though I wouldn't bet on either of them getting in.

I think Kevin Greene should get in...he was productive wherever he went. I think Don Coryell's enshrinement is overdue. Dungy and Jimmy Johnson are kind of borderline to me. Dungy was constantly criticized while he was a coach...he was kind of like Chuck Knox or Marty Schottenheimer if those guys had Peyton Manning as their QB. I think there are too many coaches already in the HOF.

Looking at the list, there really aren't that many guys who would be like the Floyd Little/Curtis Martin "HUH?" selections that would just infuriate me. There are guys who I think shouldn't be in the HOF (Bettis, Bruce, Craig, Dungy, Haley, Holt, Jacoby, Edge James, Jimmy Johnson, Lynch, Mecklenburg, Woodson), but none of them would be terrible choices.

I am gladly surprised that Mike Kenn made it. Although I believe he won't get elected this year (and maybe never) he deserves to advance. William Andrews and Gerald Riggs had great seasons with him blocking.

It would be great to see Kenn get in. The HOF tends to overlook great players who played on (mostly) bad teams so it may be awhile... if ever. Clay Matthews is another one from that era who I'd like to see enshrined.

Of the first year eligible guys, I think the only sure things are Seau and Pace. I predict whoever gives Seau's acceptance speech and the discussion around him will turn into a soapbox for head injuries... not that that is a bad thing.

Dungy is an interesting discussion. I think he's deserving, but it will take awhile. Much like George Allen. He immediately turned the Bucs and Colts into contenders. Granted, having Peyton made that easy.

Warner may get in this year on his first ballot. He may need to wait awhile though because of those horrendous years in the middle of his career. Having the top 3 passing yardage games in the Super Bowl is saying something though.

Bettis, Greene, Harrison, Lynch, Mawae and Shields all need to get in someday, IMO.

Bryan wrote:Looking at the list, there really aren't that many guys who would be like the Floyd Little/Curtis Martin "HUH?" selections that would just infuriate me.

Why did Martin's enshrinement elicit that reaction from you? 4th all-time in rushing when he retired, led league in rushing one time, was top five multiple other years (if I recall correctly), was a key contributor to taking the Jets to a championship game (which is the equivalent of two Super Bowl titles for the Cowboys or Steelers), quality runner, receiver and blocker and some other things.

He is not on the same tier as Jim Brown and O.J. Simpson but I think he is clearly better than guys like Doak Walker and Floyd Little and Charlie Trippi. I think Martin is on the same tier as Leroy Kelly and John Henry Johnson.

King Kong wrote:

Bryan wrote:Looking at the list, there really aren't that many guys who would be like the Floyd Little/Curtis Martin "HUH?" selections that would just infuriate me.

Why did Martin's enshrinement elicit that reaction from you? 4th all-time in rushing when he retired, led league in rushing one time, was top five multiple other years (if I recall correctly), was a key contributor to taking the Jets to a championship game (which is the equivalent of two Super Bowl titles for the Cowboys or Steelers), quality runner, receiver and blocker and some other things.

He is not on the same tier as Jim Brown and O.J. Simpson but I think he is clearly better than guys like Doak Walker and Floyd Little and Charlie Trippi. I think Martin is on the same tier as Leroy Kelly and John Henry Johnson.

I don't know why you rate him above Walker and Trippi, both of whom were very versatile backs and much more dangerous as runners than Martin was. Remember that Trippi was a two-way halfback who also excelled at defense early in his NFL career, that he played quarterback as well as halfback, and that he was also a good punter and return man. Walker was a running back who doubled as a flanker, a very dangerous pass receiver and return man, and an excellent kicker. Yes, his career lasted only 6 seasons, but he was first team all-NFL in 4 of those seasons and he went to the Pro Bowl 5 times.

King Kong wrote:Why did Martin's enshrinement elicit that reaction from you? 4th all-time in rushing when he retired, led league in rushing one time, was top five multiple other years (if I recall correctly), was a key contributor to taking the Jets to a championship game (which is the equivalent of two Super Bowl titles for the Cowboys or Steelers), quality runner, receiver and blocker and some other things.

He is not on the same tier as Jim Brown and O.J. Simpson but I think he is clearly better than guys like Doak Walker and Floyd Little and Charlie Trippi. I think Martin is on the same tier as Leroy Kelly and John Henry Johnson.

Two reasons. One, on its face, I never really thought of Martin as being a HOF-type RB. He was a very good, very consistent RB who would get you about 4 yards per carry. I viewed him more in the class of Eddie George than in the class of Marshall Faulk/LaDainian Tomlinson. Maybe my perception is wrong. Two, the timing of Martin's induction surprised me. He had only been on the ballot 1 year, and you had Martin going in while guys like Bill Parcells, Cris Carter, Andre Reed all were shut out.

Martin's 4.0 YPC is one of the worst of any HOF HBs...only Floyd Little's 3.9 YPC is worse. I don't think its really fair to compare Martin to multi-position guys like Walker and Trippi. As for JH Johnson, he was a FB and I would guess that when he retired he would have been 4th all-time in rushing (Brown, Perry, Taylor) just like Martin. Leroy Kelly was an amazing talent who was also probably the best RB in football from 1966-1971. I don't think Martin is on the same tier.

Bryan wrote:

King Kong wrote:Why did Martin's enshrinement elicit that reaction from you? 4th all-time in rushing when he retired, led league in rushing one time, was top five multiple other years (if I recall correctly), was a key contributor to taking the Jets to a championship game (which is the equivalent of two Super Bowl titles for the Cowboys or Steelers), quality runner, receiver and blocker and some other things.

He is not on the same tier as Jim Brown and O.J. Simpson but I think he is clearly better than guys like Doak Walker and Floyd Little and Charlie Trippi. I think Martin is on the same tier as Leroy Kelly and John Henry Johnson.

Two reasons. One, on its face, I never really thought of Martin as being a HOF-type RB. He was a very good, very consistent RB who would get you about 4 yards per carry. I viewed him more in the class of Eddie George than in the class of Marshall Faulk/LaDainian Tomlinson. Maybe my perception is wrong. Two, the timing of Martin's induction surprised me. He had only been on the ballot 1 year, and you had Martin going in while guys like Bill Parcells, Cris Carter, Andre Reed all were shut out.

Martin's 4.0 YPC is one of the worst of any HOF HBs...only Floyd Little's 3.9 YPC is worse. I don't think its really fair to compare Martin to multi-position guys like Walker and Trippi. As for JH Johnson, he was a FB and I would guess that when he retired he would have been 4th all-time in rushing (Brown, Perry, Taylor) just like Martin. Leroy Kelly was an amazing talent who was also probably the best RB in football from 1966-1971. I don't think Martin is on the same tier.

I'm in total agreement with you. I saw all of these guys play and I would rate Martin well below Walker, Trippi, Johnson, and Kelly, but a bit above Little.

rhickok1109 wrote:

King Kong wrote:

Bryan wrote:Looking at the list, there really aren't that many guys who would be like the Floyd Little/Curtis Martin "HUH?" selections that would just infuriate me.

Why did Martin's enshrinement elicit that reaction from you? 4th all-time in rushing when he retired, led league in rushing one time, was top five multiple other years (if I recall correctly), was a key contributor to taking the Jets to a championship game (which is the equivalent of two Super Bowl titles for the Cowboys or Steelers), quality runner, receiver and blocker and some other things.

He is not on the same tier as Jim Brown and O.J. Simpson but I think he is clearly better than guys like Doak Walker and Floyd Little and Charlie Trippi. I think Martin is on the same tier as Leroy Kelly and John Henry Johnson.

I don't know why you rate him above Walker and Trippi, both of whom were very versatile backs and much more dangerous as runners than Martin was. Remember that Trippi was a two-way halfback who also excelled at defense early in his NFL career, that he played quarterback as well as halfback, and that he was also a good punter and return man. Walker was a running back who doubled as a flanker, a very dangerous pass receiver and return man, and an excellent kicker. Yes, his career lasted only 6 seasons, but he was first team all-NFL in 4 of those seasons and he went to the Pro Bowl 5 times.

I thought Walker was generally considered one of the weaker Hall members. His statistics are putrid when compared to most. Not that stats explain everything, but Walker's are quite low. Era adjustment can only count for so much. I've seen film of the older guys.

Bryan wrote:

King Kong wrote:Why did Martin's enshrinement elicit that reaction from you? 4th all-time in rushing when he retired, led league in rushing one time, was top five multiple other years (if I recall correctly), was a key contributor to taking the Jets to a championship game (which is the equivalent of two Super Bowl titles for the Cowboys or Steelers), quality runner, receiver and blocker and some other things.

He is not on the same tier as Jim Brown and O.J. Simpson but I think he is clearly better than guys like Doak Walker and Floyd Little and Charlie Trippi. I think Martin is on the same tier as Leroy Kelly and John Henry Johnson.

Two reasons. One, on its face, I never really thought of Martin as being a HOF-type RB. He was a very good, very consistent RB who would get you about 4 yards per carry. I viewed him more in the class of Eddie George than in the class of Marshall Faulk/LaDainian Tomlinson. Maybe my perception is wrong. Two, the timing of Martin's induction surprised me. He had only been on the ballot 1 year, and you had Martin going in while guys like Bill Parcells, Cris Carter, Andre Reed all were shut out.

Martin's 4.0 YPC is one of the worst of any HOF HBs...only Floyd Little's 3.9 YPC is worse. I don't think its really fair to compare Martin to multi-position guys like Walker and Trippi. As for JH Johnson, he was a FB and I would guess that when he retired he would have been 4th all-time in rushing (Brown, Perry, Taylor) just like Martin. Leroy Kelly was an amazing talent who was also probably the best RB in football from 1966-1971. I don't think Martin is on the same tier.

YPC can be overrated. Bill Parcells loved running the ball when his team had a lead (a lot of predictable clock grinding simple run plays in 4th quarters of games). Ottis Anderson was effective with a YPC in the low 3s. If Martin was used more judiciously maybe his average would be 4.3. Who knows? Stats can tell you things that are true. Stats can also mislead and lie.

Martin looked excellent to me. I have him on the tier below the obvious, no-brainer Hall members (includes Brown, Simpson, Tomlinson, Barry Sanders, Motley, Dickerson, Van Buren etc.). Martin is on the Okay, he's a solid member but it is fair to listen to an argument against him tier.

I am aware John Henry Johnson was a fullback. He was still a running back. I was not comparing Martin to Jan Stenerud or Billy Shaw. Johnson was a tremendous blocker and maybe the best of all-time at his position. it took him a good spell to get inducted, however. He was not a slam dunk candidate.