Dwight Clark...... Started by Versatile John, Apr 04 2014 09

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Dwight Clark......
Started by Versatile John, Apr 04 2014 09:30 AM

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36 replies to this topic

#1 Versatile John - PFRA Member
Posted 04 April 2014 - 09:30 AM
.....do you guys feel he should have been voted in as one of the top 10 49ers by the panel on the NFL Network?

Personally, I do not. He was a very good player, but they put Clark on there ahead of Jimmy Johnson, Dave Wilcox, Bob St. Clair, and others.

For those that did not see the list, it was as follows (not all in order):

Montana

Rice

Lott

Steve Young

"The Million Dollar Backfield" went in as one group (I think they should have been in as individuals, not all at the same time)

Roger Craig

Patrick Willis

Dwight Clark

Charles Haley

Frank Gore

No Leo Nomellini, and the others I mentioned??????

I know the NFL Network votes in more recent guys to promote their current gig, but come on, people?

Thoughts?

#2 Todd Pence - Forum Visitors
Posted 04 April 2014 - 10:44 AM
And where's John Brodie?

#3 byron - PFRA Member
Posted 04 April 2014 - 11:06 AM
Yeah, they definitely lean towards current players. There are others in their history that were better. I would take Joe Perry over Frank Gore. John Brodie (good call, Todd) and Leo Nomellini are two others to consider.

#4 Versatile John - PFRA Member
Posted 04 April 2014 - 11:30 AM
Gore is the all-time leading rusher for the Niners' franchise, but Joe Perry retired as the NFL's all-time leading rusher, right? Of course, he was on there with Tittle, McIlhenny and John Henry Johnson.

Brodie was better than Clark, IMO.

I am not so sure Clark was a better Niner than Eric Wright was over his career. Was he that much better than Abe Woodson? Terrell Owens? Randy Cross?

If not for "The Catch," he would not even be considered, IMO.

#5 NWebster - Forum Visitors
Posted 04 April 2014 - 11:35 AM
Odd to leave Hall of Famers off in favor of Clark, Haley, Gore, etc. I could lose each of those for Leo, Jim Johnson and Bob StClair.

#6 Versatile John - PFRA Member
Posted 04 April 2014 - 12:33 PM
NWebster, on 04 Apr 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:
Odd to leave Hall of Famers off in favor of Clark, Haley, Gore, etc. I could lose each of those for Leo, Jim Johnson and Bob StClair.

It is not odd for that group on there, I will tell ya that. They always have some interesting choices. For instance, Forrest Gregg was left off the top 10 all-time Packers, but Kramer was listed among their group. Plus, some of those idiots that do the sound bites argued with Don Hutson as the #1 Packer. Scotty Ferrell, Damon A., among others, know about as much of the NFL history, as I do about how much yak manure is deposited on the grasslands of Tibet annually. Other than Joe Horrigan, Ray Didinger, and a couple others, the voters and the "sound bite geezers" are useless.

#7 74_75_78_79_ - Forum Visitors
Posted 04 April 2014 - 02:07 PM
Yeah, Dwight Clark's rep is quite 'Catch'-heavy. RC Owens, Brent Jones, and Vernon I would obviously take over him. Clark is sort of like Kirk Gibson. He also had a great career, but if not for that HR in Game 1 of the '88 WS, how much less of a rep would he have today?

#8 Jeremy Crowhurst - PFRA Member
Posted 04 April 2014 - 02:12 PM
It's a t.v. show, first and foremost. It's hard to take it very seriously.

#9 74_75_78_79_ - Forum Visitors
Posted 04 April 2014 - 02:26 PM
Jeremy Crowhurst, on 04 Apr 2014 - 2:12 PM, said:
It's a t.v. show, first and foremost. It's hard to take it very seriously.

Yeah, I do watch the NFL Network but end of day it's really a glorified guilty pleasure. Such the case with MTV2 (or at least when it first came out) there should be another NFL Network, one which is more raw/old school oriented. Perhaps it should be named the PFRA Network, lol.

#10 Versatile John - PFRA Member
Posted 04 April 2014 - 02:32 PM
Jeremy Crowhurst, on 04 Apr 2014 - 2:12 PM, said:
It's a t.v. show, first and foremost. It's hard to take it very seriously.

Very true.

But, still, it gives me a chance to beech about the selections.... the same way I do when the Heisman rolls around annually; the same as I do for the All-Pro teams; the same I do for the "Roger Goodell Pro Bowl selections; and the same as I do for the Hall of Fame selections...... These folks help me let off steam. But, the fact remains they are Alicia Silverstone clueless.

#11 Teo - PFRA Member
Posted 04 April 2014 - 02:35 PM
I completely agree, those shows with Amendolara voting/talking don't have much credibility, but if you take the 49ers who started his career after the merger, I would put Clark, and not only for The Catch: he was an All-Pro in 1982, Pro Bowler twice and had a good career in San Francisco.

#12 Versatile John - PFRA Member
Posted 04 April 2014 - 02:48 PM
Clark was very good, no doubt.

But, this was best Forty Niners of all-time, not just after the merger. Of they were doing this from 1970--present, you would be on to something.......but not all-time San Fran players.

#13 JohnH19 - Forum Visitors
Posted 04 April 2014 - 03:07 PM
74_75_78_79_, on 04 Apr 2014 - 2:07 PM, said:
Yeah, Dwight Clark's rep is quite 'Catch'-heavy. RC Owens, Brent Jones, and Vernon I would obviously take over him. Clark is sort of like Kirk Gibson. He also had a great career, but if not for that HR in Game 1 of the '88 WS, how much less of a rep would he have today?

R.C. Owens over Clark? Seriously?

#14 byron - PFRA Member
Posted 04 April 2014 - 03:57 PM
Quote
Gore is the all-time leading rusher for the Niners' franchise, but Joe Perry retired as the NFL's all-time leading rusher, right?

They don't count Perry's yards from his days in the AAFC. That seriously ticked him and a lot of the old timers off.

#15 JohnMaxymuk - PFRA Member
The shows are meant primarily as entertainment and as an excuse for the talking heads to get off some good lines. I have appeared on a number of the top ten episodes and there is no voting. The producers send you the already prepared list(s) ahead of time so you know who you will be talking about and then they do the interviews one at a time, asking about the people on the list. It's fun to do, usually fun to watch (at least there's usually some good footage to see), but authoritative historical discussion it ain't.

#16 Versatile John - PFRA Member
Posted 04 April 2014 - 05:07 PM
Well, John Maxy, if you are Scotty Ferrell or Damon A., then my apologies. HA!

Seriously, though, who picks the top ten lists, is it the producers?

#17 BD Sullivan - Forum Visitors
Posted 04 April 2014 - 06:23 PM
Dr. Z made a similar point 30 years ago about how the "All-Time" teams picked by fans after a title are the worst, specifically noting the 49ers and the omission of players like Leo Nomellini. This was even before Jerry Rice had put on a SF uniform!

#18 oldecapecod 11 - PFRA Member
Posted 04 April 2014 - 07:04 PM
Versatile John
"... but Joe Perry ... Tittle, McIlhenny and John Henry Johnson..."

FYI: The only full-house backfield in the Canton facility.
AKA: The second unit to be termed "The Million Dollar Backfield."

#19 JohnMaxymuk - PFRA Member
Posted 04 April 2014 - 07:39 PM
V-John, yes, the producers make the lists. Even when they did one on uniform numbers and were bringing me in to blabber on since I'd written a book on the topic, I had no input on the list itself.

#20 JuggernautJ - PFRA Member
Posted 04 April 2014 - 07:46 PM
Versatile John, on 04 Apr 2014 - 2:48 PM, said:
Clark was very good, no doubt.

I'm not so sure Clark was even "very good" (as in the Hall of the Very Good) and I'm a devout Niner fan.

I'll concede "good" but I think Dwight's is the classic case of a "great player making those around him better."
The great player in this discussion is Joe Montana.

Clark's skill set was well suited to Bill Walsh's early West Coast offense.
Having Joe throwing to him emphasized that skill set.

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oldecapecod 11

Dwight Clark......
Started by Versatile John, Apr 04 2014 09:30 AM

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36 replies to this topic

#21 coach tj troup - PFRA Member
Posted 04 April 2014 - 08:25 PM
....for many of the teams "picking" an all-time 10 is so difficult. on many of those shows(though entertaining), limited criteria thus some of what has been stated here in the forum. personally relish watching old 49er film, and why the niners struggled to become a consistent force. that said, as effective/productive as dwight clark was, gene washington does not get his just due for either the niners, or what accomplished early in his career. his first four years in the league he caught 196 for 3,613, and 31 touchdowns. he ranks 3rd in catches behind harold j. & freddy b. gene ranked second in touchdowns to freddy, and he gained the most yards. ok, guys is he worthy of hall of the very good, or since his numbers drop is just another player that started fast, and dropped off? as for leo the lion ....the clip with st.clair discussing leo is just great theater. for a big man he was very, VERY quick off the ball, and after he was moved back to d-tackle(played a virtual ton of offense in '55, and not near as much defense)beginning in '56 he moved to the head of the class. food for thought, put the big daddy on his best day on the center, and leo in the gap between the guard & tackle on the strong side, and dare the offense to run a trap or counter. leo should have made the list.

#22 Kelly1105 - PFRA Member
Posted 04 April 2014 - 08:54 PM
I would agree that Clark was good maybe very good. To draw a comparison to Walsh's earlier affiliation with the Bengals he was the 49er's version of Chip Myers. But I don't think he should crack the top ten all time 49ers. More like top 20.

#23 JuggernautJ - PFRA Member
Posted 04 April 2014 - 10:43 PM
In my opinion these guys should definitely be ahead of Dwight Clark:
1-3 Joe, Jerry and Ronnie.
4-7 The Million Dollar Backfield
9-14 Other 49ers in the Hall of Fame (Fred Dean,Jimmy Johnson, Leo Nomellini, Bob St Clair, Dave Wilcox, Steve Young,)

And these guys definitely probably:
Roger Craig, John Brodie, John Taylor, Gene Washington, Brunno Banducci, Randy Cross, Bryant Young, Charles Haley, Frank Gore, Patrick Willis, Eric Wright...
I think that's 25 ahead of Dwight Clark.

I'm not even sure I'd put Dwight Clark ahead of Freddie Solomon or Earl Cooper if it weren't for "The Well-You-Know".

#24 BD Sullivan - Forum Visitors
Posted 04 April 2014 - 10:56 PM
The story on how they discovered Clark was that the Niners went to look at QB Steve Fuller prior to the '79 NFL Draft and needed a receiver to catch his throws, which happened to be Clark.

#25 74_75_78_79_ - Forum Visitors
Posted 05 April 2014 - 01:13 AM
JohnH19, on 04 Apr 2014 - 3:07 PM, said:
R.C. Owens over Clark? Seriously?

"Alley Oop!...Oop!...Oop!...Oop-Oop!"

He was such a precursor to Randy Moss as far as the deep end-zone jump ball was concerned. Numerous times when the whole world would know that YA was going to throw deep to RC and RC still got it done! Even while being double-teamed and by the likes of JACK CHRISTIANSEN and JIM DAVID, mind you! His simple lore is just too thick! Just imagine his even GREATER legend had SF won it all in '57? Today, when Jerry Rice raves about Calvin Johnson he starts by comparing him to...RC. And I'm very sure that if you ask Dwight who's better between he and RC, he'd say RC with zero hesitation/false modesty. Also, RC was a rule-changer thanks to his ability to block FGs. NFL rules disallowed 'goal-tending' in front of the goal posts thanks almost solely to him.

#26 74_75_78_79_ - Forum Visitors
Posted 05 April 2014 - 01:17 AM
How about John Taylor on All-Time Niners? Inside or outside the Top 25?

#27 Teo - PFRA Member
Posted 05 April 2014 - 02:28 AM
BD Sullivan, on 04 Apr 2014 - 10:56 PM, said:
The story on how they discovered Clark was that the Niners went to look at QB Steve Fuller prior to the '79 NFL Draft and needed a receiver to catch his throws, which happened to be Clark.

The interesting thing is that two other wide receivers from Clemson were drafted in 1979: Jerry Butler in the first round by the Bills and Stan Rome in the eleventh round by the Chiefs (one round after the 49ers drafted Clark).

#28 Versatile John - PFRA Member
Posted 05 April 2014 - 01:07 PM
No offense, I am aware they were the second "Million Dollar Backfield." I know they are all in the HOF, as well.

Wait a second.....I know who you are, John Maxymuk. I did not make the connection. Sorry, I was worried you were one of the other guys I referenced as the "sound bite guys." HA!

#29 Versatile John - PFRA Member
Posted 05 April 2014 - 01:08 PM
Stan Rome was one of the best high school football and basketball players in the state of Georgia. I loved that guy. I thought he would have gone on and done better things professionally.

Of course, his son is on the UGA football team. That, I try not to hold against him. HA!

Yes, I definitely think Banducci and Bryant Young belong on an all-time list ahead of Dwight Clark. I completely forgot about them. Great call.

#30 Marble_Eye - Forum Visitors
Posted 05 April 2014 - 02:18 PM
Other Great 49ers for consideration: Frankie Albert, Gordie Soltau, Billy Wilson, Tommy Davis, Charlie Krueger, Howard Mudd, Alyn Beals. Not saying they all deserve to be Top Ten, but they at least deserve honorable mention or some consideration,

But as was stated earlier in the thread, and as everyone knows... anything that happened before 1970 or so when there is film available or before 1979 (ESPN) or even a little outside the modern day game that the NFL wants to promote for $$$, gets short shrift from anyone and everyone but historical minded fans such as the relatively few that frequent this site or similar sites.

#31 BD Sullivan - Forum Visitors
Posted 05 April 2014 - 06:48 PM
Art Donovan was a legitimate Hall of Fame player, yet the only likely reason so many people knew about him was because he was always a colorful interview.

#32 Versatile John - PFRA Member
Posted 05 April 2014 - 07:15 PM
Chris Berman (I think) asks, "Did you ever tear your ACL when you played, Art?

Donovan replies, "We didn't have those when I played."

I met Art a few years ago, as he signed a card for me (I collect autographs). What a fabulous guy he was. Rest In Peace, Art!

#33 Rupert Patrick - PFRA Member
Posted 05 April 2014 - 07:36 PM
BD Sullivan, on 05 Apr 2014 - 6:48 PM, said:
Art Donovan was a legitimate Hall of Fame player, yet the only likely reason so many people knew about him was because he was always a colorful interview.

In his later years, Donovan became the closest thing pro football had to a Yogi Berra in the role of the colorful storyteller who was the last surviving witness to many of the great games and players of the past.

#34 conace21 - Forum Visitors
Posted 05 April 2014 - 08:02 PM
Donovan and Leo were probably the best one way defensive tackles in the first 45 years of the NFL's existence.

#35 coach tj troup - PFRA Member
Posted 05 April 2014 - 11:56 PM
....art donovan was an outstanding run defender and though he tailed off late in his career, from 54-58 he was superb. though he played in the nfl only a few years, arnie weinmeister of the giants was the best defensive tackle before leo passed him. could conduct a class on how to play the position by using him. powerful, quick, relentless, and very consistent. he could hold his own with olsen, lilly, and sestak.

#36 JohnH19 - Forum Visitors
Posted 06 April 2014 - 11:42 AM
74_75_78_79_, on 05 Apr 2014 - 01:13 AM, said:
JohnH19, on 04 Apr 2014 - 3:07 PM, said:
R.C. Owens over Clark? Seriously?

"Alley Oop!...Oop!...Oop!...Oop-Oop!"

He was such a precursor to Randy Moss as far as the deep end-zone jump ball was concerned. Numerous times when the whole world would know that YA was going to throw deep to RC and RC still got it done! Even while being double-teamed and by the likes of JACK CHRISTIANSEN and JIM DAVID, mind you! His simple lore is just too thick! Just imagine his even GREATER legend had SF won it all in '57? Today, when Jerry Rice raves about Calvin Johnson he starts by comparing him to...RC. And I'm very sure that if you ask Dwight who's better between he and RC, he'd say RC with zero hesitation/false modesty. Also, RC was a rule-changer thanks to his ability to block FGs. NFL rules disallowed 'goal-tending' in front of the goal posts thanks almost solely to him.

Methinks you overrate Mr. Owens quite substantially. He had one very productive receiving season, in 1961 (a result of the shotgun experiment?), and then he was a Colt in 1962. He also wasn't a great TD producer, considering his Alley Oop reputation, with 22 in 206 career receptions (20 in 176 with SF).

Billy Wilson was the 49'ers best wide receiver, and one of the very best in the league, in the 50s. A good case can be made for him as a senior candidate for Canton and he definitely deserves his place in the HoVG.

#37 Todd Pence - Forum Visitors
Posted 06 April 2014 - 12:20 PM
Pro Football Reference has Clark ranked 28th on the 49ers all-time career AV rankings, behind most of the players already listed.

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