Help with autograph on 1933 Championship program

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Help with autograph on 1933 Championship program
Started by Moran, Jan 31 2014 03:06 PM

16 replies to this topic

#1 Moran
PFRA Member

338 posts
Gender:Male
Posted 31 January 2014 - 03:06 PM
I was very fortunate to acquire a copy of the 1933 Championship program with the signatures of most of the Giants - the dealer told me it came from the family of Max Krause. I bought it because my father signed it, but just above my father and below Red Badgro is the one name I can't decipher or figure out the connection to the Giants. I have a 1929 piece from my grandmother signed by all the Giants (except my father) plus a couple of sportswriters and the announcer from Yankee Stadium who was a friend of Tim Mara and traveled with the team to Chicago. So this may be a friend of the Mara family or a newspaper man - I don't know, but I thought someone among this knowledgeable group might unravel the mystery. Thanks

Here's a link to the program with the mystery signature enlarged at the bottom http://www.hapmoran....er/1933auto.jpg

#2 Moran
PFRA Member
Posted 31 January 2014 - 08:33 PM
I found a 1937 Giants team photo with a Joe Carroll sitting in the front row, extreme right, in a suit and tie - don't know his role with the team or if he was there in 1933 but it's a possibility

#3 conace21
Forum Visitors
Posted 01 February 2014 - 01:42 AM
While I'm no handwriting expert, the "o" in Joe is very different from the letter that would be the "o" in Carroll. Of course, the whole last name is messier than the first name.

#4 Rupert Patrick
PFRA Member
Posted 01 February 2014 - 07:59 AM
On pro-football-reference.com I did a search on "Joe C" and "Joseph C" and didn't see anybody in 1933 whose name looked liked it could have been his. Is it possible it was an official, a referee? Or a prominent sportswriter who covered the game? Who were the assistants for the Bears and Giants?

#5 John Grasso
Board of Directors
Posted 01 February 2014 - 10:10 AM
Interesting how people in that era took pride in good penmanship. Compare those
signatures to modern ones which are mostly illegible.

#6 Rupert Patrick
PFRA Member
Posted 01 February 2014 - 09:18 PM
John Grasso, on 01 Feb 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:
Interesting how people in that era took pride in good penmanship. Compare those
signatures to modern ones which are mostly illegible.

And there are many schools these days that no longer teach cursive writing. Go figure.

#7 Moran
PFRA Member
Posted 02 February 2014 - 06:03 PM
Until a better candidate comes along I'm going with Joe Carroll - I think his writing might have been affected by the fact that it was the edge of the program and could have flexed a bit at the signing causing some sloppiness. I Found two articles from 1935 and 1938 describing Joe Carroll as the club house boy

#8 Moran
PFRA Member
Posted 03 February 2014 - 11:23 PM
If anyone really wants to dig into Giants trivia with me, here are 1932 photos of Henry "Pop" Fabian and Charlie Porter

#9 oldecapecod2
PFRA Member
Posted 04 February 2014 - 12:11 PM
Last fall, I saw an article claiming that 85% of the schools in America do not have a teacher on staff qualified to teach "Cursive."
I cannot say for certain but I believe the article referenced grammar schools (Grades 1-6) and middle schools (Grades 7-9.)
A brief call to a friend at the Mother House of the Sisters of Charity revealed that our grammar school nuns had no "specialized" training for handwriting.
I do recall they had a well-used three-cornered ruler and a Palmer Method manual and that part of our homework was writing aaaaa, eeeee, iiiii, ooooo, and uuuuu over and over again.
The kids today ask: "What's homework?"

#10 rhickok1109
PFRA Member
Posted 04 February 2014 - 02:42 PM
oldecapecod2, on 04 Feb 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:
The kids today ask: "What's homework?"
That's certainly not true of my grandchildren. I can't believe how much homework they get. I never would have put up with it.

#11 Bob Gill
PFRA Member
Posted 04 February 2014 - 03:40 PM
Right. Friends of mine have two kids, now in third and sixth grades, and they get more homework than I got even when I was in high school.

#12 Mark L. Ford
Administrators
Posted 04 February 2014 - 03:47 PM
oldecapecod2, on 04 Feb 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:
Last fall, I saw an article claiming that 85% of the schools in America do not have a teacher on staff qualified to teach "Cursive."

What a bizarre way for a magazine writer to say that 85% of schools simply don't teach cursive writing. Qualified to teach cursive? That's like being qualified to teach kids to stay inside the lines in a coloring book.

#13 Reaser
PFRA Member
Posted 04 February 2014 - 03:49 PM
rhickok1109, on 04 Feb 2014 - 2:42 PM, said:
That's certainly not true of my grandchildren. I can't believe how much homework they get. I never would have put up with it.
Same for my little cousin, she gets non-stop homework. Only difference from Bob and yourself, is so did I.

Made school illogical. Grade school through HS was all the same, teacher sits at desk for first 95% of the day/period, kids talk/goof off during that same time. Then - I'll use HS for example - with 5 minutes left in class the teacher finally walks up to the front of the room and says what our homework was. Infuriating, much more than once I would complain saying "Why not give us the assignment at the beginning of class so I could have sat here and done it?" . . . School has become nothing more than glorified babysitting, exists to keep all the kids in one place during the day.

I was taught basic cursive in grade school, or at least given the alphabet sheet and had to copy the letters, never used it in school or was required to use it in school after that, any grade.

#14 JWL
PFRA Member
Posted 04 February 2014 - 10:21 PM
Reaser, on 04 Feb 2014 - 3:49 PM, said:
Same for my little cousin, she gets non-stop homework. Only difference from Bob and yourself, is so did I.

Made school illogicial. Grade school through HS was all the same, teacher sits at desk for first 95% of the day/period, kids talk/goof off during that same time. Then - I'll use HS for example - with 5 minutes left in class the teacher finally walks up to the front of the room and says what our homework was. Infuriating, much more than once I would complain saying "Why not give us the assignment at the beginning of class so I could have sat here and done it?" . . . School has become nothing more than glorified babysitting, exists to keep all the kids in one place during the day.

I was taught basic cursive in grade school, or at least given the alphabet sheet and had to copy the letters, never used it in school or was required to use it in school after that, any grade.
I was taught cursive in grade school in the 1980s and was required to use it in many classes. I don't recall any teachers requiring it in high school. I stopped writing regularly in cursive during my high school years.

Teachers did teach in my town. The only times we could goof off for an entire period was if there was a substitute teacher or it was the last week of the year.

#15 oldecapecod2
PFRA Member
Posted 05 February 2014 - 01:50 AM
It is both interesting and encouraging to read some of the comments here relative to my post mentioning cursive. As I said, I do not recall the levels of education that the article concerned and it was certainly a credible source. I communicate weekly (and perhaps weakly) with a number of people in education and I will try to get some verifiable data and add to this. It will be a tad difficult because I am having trouble with "copy" and "paste" here and also trouble with the "Quote" exercise. So, please bear with me while Administration attempts to repair this matter or advises me how to correct it. I can tell you that the LINK posted in the PINNED thread above has not worked for me.

In a rather quick and not very extensive telephone survey of friends in education, please know that not one was able to tell me of a grammar or middle (junior high) school - other than "private" schools where Cursive is being taught. None, except for two clergy, even knew if their particular school had any "requirements" that would qualify a teacher for that subject. This included two members of English Departments.
The great grandson of a friend is in the 7th-Grade at a South Carolina middle school and he is not being taught Cursive. I do not believe he can sign his name but I will find out for sure. His "homework" consists of only assignments he could not complete while in school.
A grandson was a 2012 honor graduate of Brown University - a little school in Providence, Rhode Island that is a member of the Ivy League. His (Massachusetts) high school homework load was minimal.

I cannot speak for this day but about 15 years ago I subbed regularly in a few Massachusetts schools. During the first day of an extended three-week assignment, I (naturally to me) assigned homework. At the close of the day, I was told by the Assistant Principal that they had not been giving homework "for a while." I replied that they have it tonight. When the three weeks concluded, I was not called to sub for the last couple months of school. A later chat with the School Superintendent resolved that matter.

I am not saying that they do or they don't. I am simply sharing what I know and what I have experienced.

In closing, I will try to copy (type, type) a LINK here which tells a pretty sad story.

http://www.brownalum...t/view/3593/32/

If it does not work, please tell me. My e-mail is available in the Members section. Please use the Hotmail address.

#16 John Grasso
Board of Directors
Posted 05 February 2014 - 09:46 AM
oldecapecod2, on 04 Feb 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:
A brief call to a friend at the Mother House of the Sisters of Charity revealed that our grammar school nuns had no "specialized" training for handwriting.
I do recall they had a well-used three-cornered ruler and a Palmer Method manual and that part of our homework was writing aaaaa, eeeee, iiiii, ooooo, and uuuuu over and over again.

What kind of "specialized" training do you need to teach handwriting. The only thing you need to know is that
if a kid picks up the pencil in his left hand you hit him on the knuckles with the ruler and tell him to use his right hand.

#17 oldecapecod2
PFRA Member
Posted 05 February 2014 - 11:25 AM
Do you hit her with equal violence or is your abuse tempered by gender?