Two NFL franchises in Chicago

[oldecapecod11]

ARCHIVE

Two NFL franchises in Chicago
Started by 74_75_78_79_, Jun 11 2014 01:10 PM

17 replies to this topic

#1 74_75_78_79_
Forum Visitors
Posted 11 June 2014 - 01:10 PM
Whether it's a brand-new franchise entering into the league today, or the Cardinals simply having never left, could Chi-town hold two NFL teams today in the same way it holds both the White Sox & Cubs, NJ/NY holds both Giants & Jets, LA held the Rams & Raiders all those years, etc?

#2 Teo
PFRA Member-1,108 posts
Posted 11 June 2014 - 05:05 PM
I don't think so, for the reason that the Chicago Blitz of the USFL proved in 1983 with bad crowds, even that they were one of the top teams in the USFL. Even now, I don't think that LA would support two teams with a new stadium. NY/NJ could support a third team IMHO better than Chicago or LA a second team.

#3 luckyshow
Forum Visitors
Posted 11 June 2014 - 06:35 PM
The Rams in Orange County after 1980, does that count as LA?

The Raiders were in LA 12 years, is that a long time?

Both teams left about the same time, so it wasn't competition that drove them out. From LA to Oakland and LA to St Louis seems counter-intuitive. Must be a lousy fan base, or a fickle one...

#4 74_75_78_79_
Forum Visitors
Posted 11 June 2014 - 07:01 PM
Yeah, I don't think Chicago today can have two NFL teams either. The only chance that it could possibly be is if the Cards never left in the first place and were still there (and perennially competitive). The whole entire city belongs to the Bears, especially being all alone the last 50+ years; doubtful that Bears fans in the south side would convert to a new team in the neighborhood. I guess (maybe you can all fill me in better) that the reason why the Cards left Chi-town in the first place was because the Bears were monopolizing. Was there any more of an 'uproar' when Cards left south side Chicago than when they left StL? Probably not. Looks like the Cards had to be contenders year-in, year-out to keep their head above water in the Windy City; just a few abysmal years, and they're in danger.

As for the NY/NJ area, I definitely think there's room for a 3rd. Brooklyn? Long Island? Have a 'North Jersey' franchise play at the Meadowlands while Giants & Jets return to the City and share with Yankees & Mets for old-time's sake?

#5 Steviek
Forum Visitors
Posted 11 June 2014 - 07:16 PM
I would agree that NYC could easily support a third NFL team. There was a research paper published in 2009 called "Market Capacity for Pro Sports" which weighed things like a market's total available personal income and ticket prices and looked at MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL and MLS. It found that NYC had enough capacity to add several additional pro franchises. Not surprisingly, smaller markets which had multiple sports franchises, like Pittsburgh and Buffalo, were thought to be overextended.

#6 Nwebster
Forum Visitors
Posted 11 June 2014 - 07:19 PM
Steviek, on 11 Jun 2014 - 7:16 PM, said:
I would agree that NYC could easily support a third NFL team. There was a research paper published in 2009 called "Market Capacity for Pro Sports" which weighed things like a market's total available personal income and ticket prices and looked at MLB, NFL, NBA, NHL and MLS. It found that NYC had enough capacity to add several additional pro franchises. Not surprisingly, smaller markets which had multiple sports franchises, like Pittsburgh and Buffalo, were thought to be overextended.

Sounds interesting, could you post a link?

#7 JuggernautJ
Starter
PFRA Member-322 posts
Posted 11 June 2014 - 09:26 PM
If the Cardinals had stayed they might have survived (imho).
I mean the Cubs.... ....(unspoken paragraphs).... ....have.

I think it is interesting to note which STATES have two teams:

New Jersey does. New York has only the Bills.
Ohio, of course. But how about Missouri? Kind of strange.
Texas and Pennsylvania and... Maryland? Yup.

#8 rhickok1109
PFRA Member-1,282 posts
Posted 12 June 2014 - 09:06 AM
Even if a market can support a second team through attendance, isn't television a problem in a market that has two teams? I know that some changes to the NFL's TV policy were made to make it possible for New York to get three games rather than two, at least on most Sundays, and schedules are developed accordingly. But would it even be possible if another area had two teams? The New York and Oakland/San Francisco situtations already create some very difficult scheduling problems.

I don't know, I'm merely posing the question. I do remember that one big reason the NFL opposed Al Davis's move to LA was the difficulties it would create for TV scheduling.

#9 Jeremy Crowhurst
Starter
PFRA Member-323 posts
Posted 12 June 2014 - 11:52 AM
rhickok1109, on 12 Jun 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:
Even if a market can support a second team through attendance, isn't television a problem in a market that has two teams? I know that some changes to the NFL's TV policy were made to make it possible for New York to get three games rather than two, at least on most Sundays, and schedules are developed accordingly. But would it even be possible if another area had two teams? The New York and Oakland/San Francisco situtations already create some very difficult scheduling problems.

I don't know, I'm merely posing the question. I do remember that one big reason the NFL opposed Al Davis's move to LA was the difficulties it would create for TV scheduling.
What's the problem? Is it just the possibility that the Chicago Jaguars might be playing their road game at the same time as the Bears are playing their home game, so viewers have to choose which one to watch?

#10 luckyshow
Forum Visitors
Posted 12 June 2014 - 04:21 PM
Maryland? The Redskins play in Virginia, correct?

Are we talking when CFL was there? Or am I going to be very embarrassed when I find out?

#11 Reaser
PFRA Member-1,729 posts
Posted 12 June 2014 - 04:53 PM
luckyshow, on 12 Jun 2014 - 4:21 PM, said:
Maryland? The Redskins play in Virginia, correct?

Are we talking when CFL was there? Or am I going to be very embarrassed when I find out?

They play in Landover, Maryland

#12 luckyshow
360 posts
Posted 12 June 2014 - 05:25 PM
OK, I can be embarrassed. They say that enough during their games.

If you counted semi-pro teams such as the University of Florida, or Texas,
Florida or Texas might fight for most in a state.
..........
Most at this site, when looking at past history, definitely think "franchise" is paramount. They look askance, at best, when I list every Brooklyn Dodgers games, whether NFL or AAFC, or Dan Topping's one game visit. I will note the rosters, owners, leagues. I recognize the continuity of the Stapes, back to 1915, pro from post-war. Seemingly more important than whose franchise charter they purchased (the Blues?)

So, where are the NFL franchises? They might all be incorporated in Delaware, for all I know. Or Liberia. But the franchises are specific. Three are New York franchises. Three. Not just Buffalo Only two at the moment in California. The NBA has four in California, as does the Major Leagues. yes, Missouri has two. I guess the Kansas one might be like being in the sticks, not a cheaper deal. Hell if I know. The Rams could be playing in Illinois, building a stadium outside East Illinois. If the Eagles played outside Camden, NJ would have three looking at it the other way.

Nobody in any league has a team in the plains states. Idaho. Montana. The Dakotas. Perhaps the most unlikely league has one in Utah.

At one time, just a few years ago,, there were eight minor league or independent league baseball teams in New Jersey. There are six now.

#13 Mark L. Ford
President PFRA-1,145 posts
Posted 12 June 2014 - 05:35 PM
Jeremy Crowhurst, on 12 Jun 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:
What's the problem? Is it just the possibility that the Chicago Jaguars might be playing their road game at the same time as the Bears are playing their home game, so viewers have to choose which one to watch?
Before the Giants and Jets shared MetLife Stadium, the only precedent for that concept was the New York Bulldogs of 1949, who would play at the Polo Grounds on the Sundays that the Giants were on the road. The stadium had games for 12 consecutive weeks . Each team had five home dates against visitors at the Polo Grounds, and they played each other for the other two games. Technically, the Cotton Bowl and the Los Angeles Coliseum had to do that with the Cowboys/Texans and the Rams/Chargers, but those were in different leagues.

I think that, once the NFL controls all of its stadiums, they could operate their own AAA league, with their practice squad players and some other non-activated team members playing on the Sundays when the main team was out of town. So, if the Eagles and Falcons were playing at the Georgia Dome, the Atlanta Sparrows and the Philadelphia Doves would be at Lincoln Financial. It could be done, but it wouldn't be, for a number of reasons, not the least of which would be an antitrust lawsuit.

#14 Rupert Patrick
PFRA Member-2,444 posts
Posted 12 June 2014 - 06:57 PM
luckyshow, on 12 Jun 2014 - 5:25 PM, said:
At one time, just a few years ago,, there were eight minor league or independent league baseball teams in New Jersey. There are six now.

One reason Charlotte has never come up in discussions for a potential future MLB expansion is because there are seemingly about a dozen minor league teams within 100 miles of the city, and a MLB team would affect all the minor league teams in the surrounding area.

#15 Steviek
Forum Visitors
Posted 12 June 2014 - 08:44 PM
NWebster, on 11 Jun 2014 - 7:19 PM, said:
Sounds interesting, could you post a link?

Unfortunately the link to the 2009 report is now dead. It appears a similar study by the same group was done in 2010-11, but only focused on cities with overcapacity as opposed to undercapacityl

http://www.bizjourna...y.html?page=all

#16 conace21
Posted 12 June 2014 - 09:36 PM
Jeremy Crowhurst, on 12 Jun 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:
What's the problem? Is it just the possibility that the Chicago Jaguars might be playing their road game at the same time as the Bears are playing their home game, so viewers have to choose which one to watch?

I think the NFL has arranged it so the Jets and Giants never play at the same time. I had always wondered why Buffalo would play a 4pm game at NY. I think they played a 4 pm game from 1994-96, 98, 2001, 03-04, 06-07, 09 and 2013.

#17 TouchdownTimmy
Forum Visitors
Interests:Almost anything to do with football and sports on the field. I am not big into celebrity or social media. I just like watching and talking about sports. Football is my game and I have been following since I was five back in 1971.
Posted 12 June 2014 - 09:49 PM
How would the Bears handle having another team in Chicago? Wouldn't they have to agree since it is their territory? I doubt very seriously if they would.

When the Bronws moved to Baltimore, Washington owner Jack Kent Cooke had to agree to give up some of his territorial rights. To his credit, he did.

When the leagues merged the AFL had to pay an $18 million indemnity to the NFL which mostly went to the NFL teams whose territorial rights would be intruded upon (couldn't figure out how else to word this)

Maybe the Bears would do the same thing that the Baltimoe Orioles did when the Montreal Expos moved to D.C. in 2005. In exchange for giving up the D.C. Metro area Orioles owner Peter Angelos secured all of the TV and radio rights to the area. He created his own network (Mid-Atlantic Sports), took the Orioles off of Comcast and began broadcastng Orioles AND Washington Nationals games on MASN. The Orioles are still the team which is broadcast on Washington sports radion WTEM not the Nats.

If Chicago were to get another team, I'm sure that the Bears would have to be compensated monetarily and given first dibs on TV and radio rights.

#18 giasyc94
Forum Visitors
Posted 13 June 2014 - 07:58 PM
Steviek, on 12 Jun 2014 - 8:44 PM, said:
Unfortunately the link to the 2009 report is now dead. It appears a similar study by the same group was done in 2010-11, but only focused on cities with overcapacity as opposed to undercapacityl

http://www.bizjourna...y.html?page=all

Steviek
I think this is the link you are referring to for the 2009 report
http://upstart.bizjo...um-seating.html

Roger