The N-word penalty
Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:37 pm
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The N-word penalty
Started by Mark L. Ford, Feb 23 2014 06:39 PM
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#1 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 23 February 2014 - 06:39 PM
This is all over the news-- in the link below, the New York Daily News. NFL expected to adopt 15-yard penalty for use of N-word on the field ...
Granted, racial slurs are offensive, bit om my opinion, this is ridiculous and about half a century too late. It would have to be enforced equally, and I imagine that it's used more commonly on the field by African-American players, in the same sense that it's used in rap music. Perhaps there have been some recent incidents some hard core racist player shouting that particular insult in the middle of a game, but you punish that with a fine, not stepping off 15 yards. And how could you even enforce it against the right party? A game official hears the word coming from somewhere in a crowd of players from both teams, then refers to his list of the most obnoxious players on each team, the officials confer and conclude, "Yeah, it was probably #32 on the offense". Or perhaps directional microphones are all being monitored by a designated language judge.
And, after you penalize one word, how many others will get added to the list? If someone refers to a bunch of Washington players as "redskins" during a game, will that count? It's purely political, lobbied for by a guy named John Wooten, the idea apparently being that if the NFL adopts the rule in the name of good will, it will trickle down to college and high school football, and the world will be a happier place. And it's a stupid idea.
#2 byron
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Posted 23 February 2014 - 06:49 PM
Agreed. This is a stupid idea.
#3 rhickok1109
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Posted 23 February 2014 - 06:59 PM
Mark L. Ford, on 23 Feb 2014 - 6:39 PM, said:
This is all over the news-- in the link below, the New York Daily News. NFL expected to adopt 15-yard penalty for use of N-word on the field ...
Granted, racial slurs are offensive, bit om my opinion, this is ridiculous and about half a century too late. It would have to be enforced equally, and I imagine that it's used more commonly on the field by African-American players, in the same sense that it's used in rap music. Perhaps there have been some recent incidents some hard core racist player shouting that particular insult in the middle of a game, but you punish that with a fine, not stepping off 15 yards. And how could you even enforce it against the right party? A game official hears the word coming from somewhere in a crowd of players from both teams, then refers to his list of the most obnoxious players on each team, the officials confer and conclude, "Yeah, it was probably #32 on the offense". Or perhaps directional microphones are all being monitored by a designated language judge.
And, after you penalize one word, how many others will get added to the list? If someone refers to a bunch of Washington players as "redskins" during a game, will that count? It's purely political, lobbied for by a guy named John Wooten, the idea apparently being that if the NFL adopts the rule in the name of good will, it will trickle down to college and high school football, and the world will be a happier place. And it's a stupid idea.
Is that the John Wooten who used to play guard for the Browns?
#4 JWL
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Posted 23 February 2014 - 08:02 PM
In MLB and the NBA, players can get thrown out of games and receive technical fouls, respectively, for magic words. There is also a lot less noise in those sports and the fans are closer to the action, especially in basketball. How many NFL fans really ever hear words that are said on the field?
This is just another thing for the refs to worry about.
#5 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 23 February 2014 - 08:44 PM
I'd add that I'm aware that this and other offensive words are going to come up in the trash talking that goes on across the line, but one has to expect that NFL players can take it as well as they dish it out. Trying to minimize serious physical injury is one thing. If a player is going to come away from the game with an emotional injury, then he's in the wrong line of work.
#6 SixtiesFan
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:39 AM
A friend of mine who has lived his whole life in Brooklyn and Queens once told me he had heard the N-word used on two occasions by whites and hundreds of times by blacks.
#7 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 10:37 AM
NYC, 1940-1966, Yorkville - 1 block south of the "Rio Grande" that separated Yorkville from East Harlem - the term we used and heard most was "colored guys."
And, yes, when we played games against the colored teams, they frequently used the n-word to both praise and criticize each other for good or bad plays.
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#8 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 11:24 AM
And although "colored" is way out of date, that's what the "C" stands for in NAACP. "African-American" takes too long to write or to say, although it's been the term of preference since 1988. "Black" is perfectly acceptable, as in the "Historically Black Universities" (HBUs) like Howard or Grambling or Florida A&M. I'm glad we reached the era where a person's skin color is no big deal. As Martin Luther King said in 1963, the ideal is to judge someone by the content of their character -- and in the case of an NFL player, his achievements on the field.
#9 nicefellow31
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:47 PM
rhickok1109, on 23 Feb 2014 - 6:59 PM, said:
Is that the John Wooten who used to play guard for the Browns?
Yes that "guy" is the John Wooten that played with the Browns and Redskins. Here's an interesting part of a book that talks about a situation on the Browns that resulted in Wooten's and Ross Fichtner's release.
http://books.google....ichtner&f=false
FYI. I officiate high school football. If you use a racial slur (any kind) or profanity you get a 15 yard penaltly. The profanity part is not heavily enforced, most usually tell the kids to knock it off, but the slur portion is.
#10 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:57 PM
Mark L. Ford
Posted Today, 10:24 AM
"And although "colored" is way out of date,,,"
It is good of you to mention those facts concerning "colored."
In most instances, "black" is acceptable as well. In a recent conversation, one of the black participants asked of the group, "Was it the black guy or the white guy?"
I think it is only in formal writings or public orations that we hear "African-American." I have never heard it in the course of informal conversation just as I have never heard "laughing out loud" but I do see LOL every day of my online activity.
There was a time, and it still might be so, when the NAACP website was extolling the virtues of various "African-Americans" and raved about the accomplishments of Grant Fuhr as one of that group. If anything, Grant is an African-Canadian and I wonder if so much attention is paid to definition across the border to our North.
AY!
#11 rhickok1109
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:59 PM
oldecapecod 11, on 24 Feb 2014 - 2:57 PM, said:
Mark L. Ford
Posted Today, 10:24 AM
"And although "colored" is way out of date,,,"
It is good of you to mention those facts concerning "colored."
In most instances, "black" is acceptable as well. In a couple of recent conversation, one of the black participants asked of the group, "Was it the black guy or the white guy?"
I think it is only in formal writings or public orations that we hear "African-American." I have never heard it in the course of informal conversation just as I have never heard "laughing out loud" but I do see LOL every day of my online activity.
There was a time, and it still might be so, when the NAACP website was extolling the virtues of various "African-Americans" and raved about the accomplishments of Grant Fuhr as one of that group. If anything, Grant is an African-Canadian and I wonder if so much attention is paid to definition across the border to our North.
AY!
I know several Canadians who consider themselves Americans, since Canada is in North America. In fact, they resent the way some people in the United States arrogating "American" for themselves
#12 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:26 PM
rhickok
Posted Today, 01:59 PM
"... I know several Canadians..."
I know several Canadians as well and I will poll. In fact, it is a very good time of the year to do this because there are hordes here in Florida for the winter. Most are among the so-called "snow birds." And, for the record, Ralph, at various gatherings, the good-natured jibes most often include "We Canadians do this. You Americans do that." and vice-versa. So, while I don't doubt your claim of resentment, I will see how much of it exists here.
#13 Teo
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 04:38 PM
Last season, umpire Roy Ellison (who is black) called Washington Redskins tackle Trent Williams a N... and was suspended one game without pay.
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#14 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 04:59 PM
Teo
Posted Today, 03:38 PM
"Last season, umpire Roy Ellison..."
The following sentence appears in the Daily News article accessed by the LINK in the original post:
"...Left tackle Trent Williams later said that the N-word was not among the vulgar language uttered by umpire Roy Ellison..."
#15 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 05:36 PM
rhickok1109, on 24 Feb 2014 - 2:59 PM, said:
I know several Canadians who consider themselves Americans, since Canada is in North America. In fact, they resent the way some people in the United States arrogating "American" for themselves
That's sad. It's like people in West Virginia considering themselves "Virginian". However, ours is the only nation on Earth that has "America" in its official name, and we're not the United States of Something Else. I think most of the citizens north of the U.S.of A. consider themselves "Canadian" and are very proud of it.
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Teo, on 24 Feb 2014 - 4:38 PM, said:
Last season, umpire Roy Ellison (who is black) called Washington Redskins tackle Trent Williams a N... and was suspended one game without pay.
From my understanding, it was Williams who used the word, and Ellison either reacting to it or addressing it. Of the four words that Ellison was alleged to have said, none of them was that word, but two of them were not for mixed company.
#17 BD Sullivan
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 07:18 PM
nicefellow31, on 24 Feb 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:
Yes that "guy" is the John Wooten that played with the Browns and Redskins. Here's an interesting part of a book that talks about a situation on the Browns that resulted in Wooten's and Ross Fichtner's release.
http://books.google....ichtner&f=false
That incident marked the second year in a row that the Browns were involved in a race-related controversy. The year before, five black Browns players (Wooten, Leroy Kelly, Mike Howell, John Brown and Sidney Williams) decided to stage a holdout. Brown ended up being traded to the Steelers and Williams to the Giants, while the other three eventually re-signed, interestingly, with the assistance of Cleveland mayoral candidate Carl Stokes.
#18 JohnH19
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Posted 25 February 2014 - 12:23 PM
rhickok1109, on 24 Feb 2014 - 2:59 PM, said:
I know several Canadians who consider themselves Americans, since Canada is in North America. In fact, they resent the way some people in the United States arrogating "American" for themselves
Ralph, I hope and assume by the smiley face that your post was tongue in cheek as we Canadians do not consider ourselves American in any way, shape or form. I would feel nothing but embarrassment for any Canadians who resent people in the U.S. of A. for referring to themselves as American.
The African-Canadian issue is another matter. We don't hear the term very often up here. I have a son who is bi-racial and he refers to himself as black on the rare occasions that it comes up.
As for the new rule; isn't it mostly young African-Americans who loosely throw the N-word, particularly the one that ends in "ah", around? I assume the word that ends in "ah" would also draw a penalty flag.
#19 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:03 PM
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Posted Today, 11:23 AM
"... we Canadians do not consider ourselves American in any way..."
I believe that was and is quite clearly expressed by the CFL with their "quota" limiting the number of Americans per team. The CFL must have received some heat over that because the link to that section of their by-laws is not longer operable although certain statements concerning "quotas" can still be found.
"... son who is bi-racial..."
In Boston, as late as 1966, there was still severe intolerance of both bi-racial people and inter-racial relationships. We were quite friendly with three such couples, two of which moved to Canada where there was far less bigotry. Some may recall Judge Garrity's 1974 ruling that Boston schools were unconstitutionally segregated.
||||| end of JohnH19 referenced matter|||||
REDBLACKS
With a nickname stylized by ownership, the Ottawa REDBLACKS is a franchise sitting on the back burner and waiting for proper stadium facilities before beginning play in the CFL.
(A suggestion might be to follow the practice of the early Boston Patriots and play where they can while waiting but the CFL might oppose this. However, it is not relevant.)
One might shudder to think of the outrage here in our "land of the free" if such a name was proposed and an even greater outrage if it was accepted by one of the major leagues, be it MLB, NBA, NFL, or NHL.
Surely, we would see something akin to the Ottawa Native-American African-Americans. Or would it be Ottawa Native-Canadian African-Canadians?
And, just think if the team moved to Manitoba and became the Lake Pekwachnamaykoskwaskwaypinwanik Native-Canadian African-Canadians.
#20 Kelly1105
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Posted 25 February 2014 - 04:56 PM
I find it humerous that the NFL finds the N-word offensive (which it is) and use of it could be penalized but a linebacker can still tell a QB his mother was good in bed the night before in much harsher terms........and thats not offensive???? I guess using the F-word which is derogatory to gay men is still OK......This is a very slippery slope.
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oldecapecod 11
The N-word penalty
Started by Mark L. Ford, Feb 23 2014 06:39 PM
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47 replies to this topic
#1 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 23 February 2014 - 06:39 PM
This is all over the news-- in the link below, the New York Daily News. NFL expected to adopt 15-yard penalty for use of N-word on the field ...
Granted, racial slurs are offensive, bit om my opinion, this is ridiculous and about half a century too late. It would have to be enforced equally, and I imagine that it's used more commonly on the field by African-American players, in the same sense that it's used in rap music. Perhaps there have been some recent incidents some hard core racist player shouting that particular insult in the middle of a game, but you punish that with a fine, not stepping off 15 yards. And how could you even enforce it against the right party? A game official hears the word coming from somewhere in a crowd of players from both teams, then refers to his list of the most obnoxious players on each team, the officials confer and conclude, "Yeah, it was probably #32 on the offense". Or perhaps directional microphones are all being monitored by a designated language judge.
And, after you penalize one word, how many others will get added to the list? If someone refers to a bunch of Washington players as "redskins" during a game, will that count? It's purely political, lobbied for by a guy named John Wooten, the idea apparently being that if the NFL adopts the rule in the name of good will, it will trickle down to college and high school football, and the world will be a happier place. And it's a stupid idea.
#2 byron
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Posted 23 February 2014 - 06:49 PM
Agreed. This is a stupid idea.
#3 rhickok1109
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Posted 23 February 2014 - 06:59 PM
Mark L. Ford, on 23 Feb 2014 - 6:39 PM, said:
This is all over the news-- in the link below, the New York Daily News. NFL expected to adopt 15-yard penalty for use of N-word on the field ...
Granted, racial slurs are offensive, bit om my opinion, this is ridiculous and about half a century too late. It would have to be enforced equally, and I imagine that it's used more commonly on the field by African-American players, in the same sense that it's used in rap music. Perhaps there have been some recent incidents some hard core racist player shouting that particular insult in the middle of a game, but you punish that with a fine, not stepping off 15 yards. And how could you even enforce it against the right party? A game official hears the word coming from somewhere in a crowd of players from both teams, then refers to his list of the most obnoxious players on each team, the officials confer and conclude, "Yeah, it was probably #32 on the offense". Or perhaps directional microphones are all being monitored by a designated language judge.
And, after you penalize one word, how many others will get added to the list? If someone refers to a bunch of Washington players as "redskins" during a game, will that count? It's purely political, lobbied for by a guy named John Wooten, the idea apparently being that if the NFL adopts the rule in the name of good will, it will trickle down to college and high school football, and the world will be a happier place. And it's a stupid idea.
Is that the John Wooten who used to play guard for the Browns?
#4 JWL
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Posted 23 February 2014 - 08:02 PM
In MLB and the NBA, players can get thrown out of games and receive technical fouls, respectively, for magic words. There is also a lot less noise in those sports and the fans are closer to the action, especially in basketball. How many NFL fans really ever hear words that are said on the field?
This is just another thing for the refs to worry about.
#5 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 23 February 2014 - 08:44 PM
I'd add that I'm aware that this and other offensive words are going to come up in the trash talking that goes on across the line, but one has to expect that NFL players can take it as well as they dish it out. Trying to minimize serious physical injury is one thing. If a player is going to come away from the game with an emotional injury, then he's in the wrong line of work.
#6 SixtiesFan
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:39 AM
A friend of mine who has lived his whole life in Brooklyn and Queens once told me he had heard the N-word used on two occasions by whites and hundreds of times by blacks.
#7 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 10:37 AM
NYC, 1940-1966, Yorkville - 1 block south of the "Rio Grande" that separated Yorkville from East Harlem - the term we used and heard most was "colored guys."
And, yes, when we played games against the colored teams, they frequently used the n-word to both praise and criticize each other for good or bad plays.
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#8 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 11:24 AM
And although "colored" is way out of date, that's what the "C" stands for in NAACP. "African-American" takes too long to write or to say, although it's been the term of preference since 1988. "Black" is perfectly acceptable, as in the "Historically Black Universities" (HBUs) like Howard or Grambling or Florida A&M. I'm glad we reached the era where a person's skin color is no big deal. As Martin Luther King said in 1963, the ideal is to judge someone by the content of their character -- and in the case of an NFL player, his achievements on the field.
#9 nicefellow31
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:47 PM
rhickok1109, on 23 Feb 2014 - 6:59 PM, said:
Is that the John Wooten who used to play guard for the Browns?
Yes that "guy" is the John Wooten that played with the Browns and Redskins. Here's an interesting part of a book that talks about a situation on the Browns that resulted in Wooten's and Ross Fichtner's release.
http://books.google....ichtner&f=false
FYI. I officiate high school football. If you use a racial slur (any kind) or profanity you get a 15 yard penaltly. The profanity part is not heavily enforced, most usually tell the kids to knock it off, but the slur portion is.
#10 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:57 PM
Mark L. Ford
Posted Today, 10:24 AM
"And although "colored" is way out of date,,,"
It is good of you to mention those facts concerning "colored."
In most instances, "black" is acceptable as well. In a recent conversation, one of the black participants asked of the group, "Was it the black guy or the white guy?"
I think it is only in formal writings or public orations that we hear "African-American." I have never heard it in the course of informal conversation just as I have never heard "laughing out loud" but I do see LOL every day of my online activity.
There was a time, and it still might be so, when the NAACP website was extolling the virtues of various "African-Americans" and raved about the accomplishments of Grant Fuhr as one of that group. If anything, Grant is an African-Canadian and I wonder if so much attention is paid to definition across the border to our North.
AY!
#11 rhickok1109
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:59 PM
oldecapecod 11, on 24 Feb 2014 - 2:57 PM, said:
Mark L. Ford
Posted Today, 10:24 AM
"And although "colored" is way out of date,,,"
It is good of you to mention those facts concerning "colored."
In most instances, "black" is acceptable as well. In a couple of recent conversation, one of the black participants asked of the group, "Was it the black guy or the white guy?"
I think it is only in formal writings or public orations that we hear "African-American." I have never heard it in the course of informal conversation just as I have never heard "laughing out loud" but I do see LOL every day of my online activity.
There was a time, and it still might be so, when the NAACP website was extolling the virtues of various "African-Americans" and raved about the accomplishments of Grant Fuhr as one of that group. If anything, Grant is an African-Canadian and I wonder if so much attention is paid to definition across the border to our North.
AY!
I know several Canadians who consider themselves Americans, since Canada is in North America. In fact, they resent the way some people in the United States arrogating "American" for themselves
#12 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:26 PM
rhickok
Posted Today, 01:59 PM
"... I know several Canadians..."
I know several Canadians as well and I will poll. In fact, it is a very good time of the year to do this because there are hordes here in Florida for the winter. Most are among the so-called "snow birds." And, for the record, Ralph, at various gatherings, the good-natured jibes most often include "We Canadians do this. You Americans do that." and vice-versa. So, while I don't doubt your claim of resentment, I will see how much of it exists here.
#13 Teo
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 04:38 PM
Last season, umpire Roy Ellison (who is black) called Washington Redskins tackle Trent Williams a N... and was suspended one game without pay.
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#14 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 04:59 PM
Teo
Posted Today, 03:38 PM
"Last season, umpire Roy Ellison..."
The following sentence appears in the Daily News article accessed by the LINK in the original post:
"...Left tackle Trent Williams later said that the N-word was not among the vulgar language uttered by umpire Roy Ellison..."
#15 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 05:36 PM
rhickok1109, on 24 Feb 2014 - 2:59 PM, said:
I know several Canadians who consider themselves Americans, since Canada is in North America. In fact, they resent the way some people in the United States arrogating "American" for themselves
That's sad. It's like people in West Virginia considering themselves "Virginian". However, ours is the only nation on Earth that has "America" in its official name, and we're not the United States of Something Else. I think most of the citizens north of the U.S.of A. consider themselves "Canadian" and are very proud of it.
#16 65 toss power trap
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 06:25 PM
Teo, on 24 Feb 2014 - 4:38 PM, said:
Last season, umpire Roy Ellison (who is black) called Washington Redskins tackle Trent Williams a N... and was suspended one game without pay.
From my understanding, it was Williams who used the word, and Ellison either reacting to it or addressing it. Of the four words that Ellison was alleged to have said, none of them was that word, but two of them were not for mixed company.
#17 BD Sullivan
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Posted 24 February 2014 - 07:18 PM
nicefellow31, on 24 Feb 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:
Yes that "guy" is the John Wooten that played with the Browns and Redskins. Here's an interesting part of a book that talks about a situation on the Browns that resulted in Wooten's and Ross Fichtner's release.
http://books.google....ichtner&f=false
That incident marked the second year in a row that the Browns were involved in a race-related controversy. The year before, five black Browns players (Wooten, Leroy Kelly, Mike Howell, John Brown and Sidney Williams) decided to stage a holdout. Brown ended up being traded to the Steelers and Williams to the Giants, while the other three eventually re-signed, interestingly, with the assistance of Cleveland mayoral candidate Carl Stokes.
#18 JohnH19
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Posted 25 February 2014 - 12:23 PM
rhickok1109, on 24 Feb 2014 - 2:59 PM, said:
I know several Canadians who consider themselves Americans, since Canada is in North America. In fact, they resent the way some people in the United States arrogating "American" for themselves
Ralph, I hope and assume by the smiley face that your post was tongue in cheek as we Canadians do not consider ourselves American in any way, shape or form. I would feel nothing but embarrassment for any Canadians who resent people in the U.S. of A. for referring to themselves as American.
The African-Canadian issue is another matter. We don't hear the term very often up here. I have a son who is bi-racial and he refers to himself as black on the rare occasions that it comes up.
As for the new rule; isn't it mostly young African-Americans who loosely throw the N-word, particularly the one that ends in "ah", around? I assume the word that ends in "ah" would also draw a penalty flag.
#19 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:03 PM
JohnH19
Posted Today, 11:23 AM
"... we Canadians do not consider ourselves American in any way..."
I believe that was and is quite clearly expressed by the CFL with their "quota" limiting the number of Americans per team. The CFL must have received some heat over that because the link to that section of their by-laws is not longer operable although certain statements concerning "quotas" can still be found.
"... son who is bi-racial..."
In Boston, as late as 1966, there was still severe intolerance of both bi-racial people and inter-racial relationships. We were quite friendly with three such couples, two of which moved to Canada where there was far less bigotry. Some may recall Judge Garrity's 1974 ruling that Boston schools were unconstitutionally segregated.
||||| end of JohnH19 referenced matter|||||
REDBLACKS
With a nickname stylized by ownership, the Ottawa REDBLACKS is a franchise sitting on the back burner and waiting for proper stadium facilities before beginning play in the CFL.
(A suggestion might be to follow the practice of the early Boston Patriots and play where they can while waiting but the CFL might oppose this. However, it is not relevant.)
One might shudder to think of the outrage here in our "land of the free" if such a name was proposed and an even greater outrage if it was accepted by one of the major leagues, be it MLB, NBA, NFL, or NHL.
Surely, we would see something akin to the Ottawa Native-American African-Americans. Or would it be Ottawa Native-Canadian African-Canadians?
And, just think if the team moved to Manitoba and became the Lake Pekwachnamaykoskwaskwaypinwanik Native-Canadian African-Canadians.
#20 Kelly1105
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Location:Eastern Pa.
Posted 25 February 2014 - 04:56 PM
I find it humerous that the NFL finds the N-word offensive (which it is) and use of it could be penalized but a linebacker can still tell a QB his mother was good in bed the night before in much harsher terms........and thats not offensive???? I guess using the F-word which is derogatory to gay men is still OK......This is a very slippery slope.
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