Is it an NFL Hall of Fame or a Pro Football Hall of Fame 1
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Is it an NFL Hall of Fame or a Pro Football Hall of Fame (Part 1)
Started by John Grasso, Apr 02 2014 07:54 AM
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#1 John Grasso
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:54 AM
In another thread mention is made of Damon Allen and the fact that he should not be
considered for the Pro Football Hall of Fame. I'm curious though - is it a Pro Football
Hall of Fame or just a Hall of Fame for the NFL? I looked at the Hall's website, mission
statement and selection process and don't see anything to clarify it.
The Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame recognizes non-NBA players for their
contribution to basketball. The Baseball Hall (after some arm-twisting) recognizes
Negro League players. Shouldn't the Pro Football Hall also recognize Canadian League
players? And even Arena League players?
#2 Citizen
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:58 AM
Whether or not it's ever officially acknowledged as such, it's definitely the NFL Hall of Fame.
#3 Bryan
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 09:04 AM
I think the Pro Football Hall of Fame encompasses the APFA, NFL, AAFC, and AFL. I think the CFL has their own Hall of Fame...it would probably be a more appropriate place for Damon Allen than the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
The Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame is a complete mess. Dennis Johnson can be bumped from a ballot by an Eastern European women's player.
#4 conace21
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 09:35 AM
It's not officially the NFL Hall of Fame, and Marion Motley and Billy Shaw were inducted for their work in the AAFC and AFL, respectively. It seeks to represent the highest levels of professional football, and the WFL, USFL, Arena League, and CFL all fall short. IIRC, the HOF did have an exhibit dedicated to these other leagues.
#5 ronfitch
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 11:00 AM
Bryan, on 02 Apr 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:
I think the Pro Football Hall of Fame encompasses the APFA, NFL, AAFC, and AFL. I think the CFL has their own Hall of Fame...it would probably be a more appropriate place for Damon Allen than the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
The Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame is a complete mess. Dennis Johnson can be bumped from a ballot by an Eastern European women's player.
The CFL does have its own ... http://www.cfhof.ca/
Bud Grant and Warren Moon are in both the Canadian Football Hall of Fame and the Pro Football Hall of Fame, Grant as a "builder" in the CFHoF and coach in the PFHoF and Moon as the only player in both.
#6 Reaser
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 11:42 AM
John Grasso, on 02 Apr 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:
I'm curious though - is it a Pro Football Hall of Fame or just a Hall of Fame for the NFL?
Shouldn't the Pro Football Hall also recognize Canadian League
players? And even Arena League players?
The Baseball Hall (after some arm-twisting) recognizes
Negro League players. Shouldn't the Pro Football Hall also recognize Canadian League
players? And even Arena League players?
It's for Pro Football.
Both the CFL and Arena Football have their own HOF's and for good reason.
The PFHOF is for the sport of American football. Canadian football isn't American football. Arena football is an entirely different sport.
This discussion has been had here multiple times, people get caught up on the wrong thing, "Football", if you want to go that route then there's Australian Football (with the better known "AFL" worldwide), or you know, 'soccer', pretty much every country has their own football. The (American) PFHOF isn't a catch-all for all forms of "football", it's for the best players (and contributors) in the best sport in America.
Did Negro League players really get compared to Arena Football players? Yikes . . .
Though profits are important, the sport must take precedence over the business
#7 Reaser
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 11:51 AM
Bryan, on 02 Apr 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:
The Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame is a complete mess.
No kidding, it's the worst of the major HOF's.
I guess at least no one has started to campaign for legendary Slamball players to be inducted . . . yet.
Though profits are important, the sport must take precedence over the business
#8 BD Sullivan
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 12:30 PM
The PFHOF is considered separate from the NFL, but I don't think there's ever been any serious consideration of including CFL players. All the other leagues had such a short life span that they get passed over, regardless of how dominant someone might have been in that department. Obviously, the cases of Motley and Shaw are the exceptions, rather than the rule.
#9 JWL
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 12:49 PM
Reaser, on 02 Apr 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:
No kidding, it's the worst of the major HOF's.
I guess at least no one has started to campaign for legendary Slamball players to be inducted . . . yet.
I never pay mind to the inductions, but sometimes learn about them while hearing sports updates on the radio or while looking at the scroll on an ESPN channel. In recent years I saw that Reggie Miller and Bernard King did not get in, but some female basketball players from Europe or Asia got inducted. I just cannot take it seriously.
#10 JWL
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 12:54 PM
The argument for Damon Allen (made by multiple people on another football forum that will remain nameless) was that he was a great pro football player. Therefore, he should be immortalized in the Pro Football Hall of Fame and his bust should be in the same room as Jim Brown and Joe Montana and company. Never mind the fact that Allen could not make a NFL roster and was maybe a worse quarterback than Bob Gagliano and Mark Vlasic and Brooks Bollinger.
#11 Reaser
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 01:53 PM
JWL, on 02 Apr 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:
Reggie Miller and Bernard King did not get in, but some female basketball players from Europe or Asia got inducted. I just cannot take it seriously.
When Reggie Miller did get in, he was part of a great class, headlined by Phil Knight . . .
#12 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 02:24 PM
The Canton facility serves the National Football League.
This is not a bad thing.
It is simply a misnomer since it does not encompass all of professional football.
It serves the most successful survivor of a relatively small group - one professional organization and that organization is the National Football League, the parent, if you will, of those groups that are embraced as accepted members of its family. Other members, legitimate or otherwise, are ignored.
There is no prototype of the perfect hall of fame.
The scope of the other institutions does not and cannot be compared with that of the NFL shrine.
Basketball is an internationally formatted activity. The Springfield, Massachusetts site acknowleges such and needs to hang its head in shame over the exclusion of so many deserving players.
But, that is true with every similar organization. There will always be those who disagree - not only about those excluded, but about those who cause the exclusion, where the "line" is drawn and who draws the line.
Witness: The "put and take" thread in this venue.
It is difficult, however, to hang a head that is already buried in sand. Other generations will tire of watching ten people run back and forth in their underwear; in fact, the switch to pajama-like attire indicates that has already started.
Note: The NFL has followed suit (Is that a pun?) with its garments which will soon resemble NASCAR entries.
Baseball lost all credibility with its Negro Leagues' catch-up nonsense a few years back.
They created a "committee," allocated a few million for R&D, gave the chair to a white ex-comm, (That's c-o-m-m, not c-o-n.) and waited for results.
After one major party at a posh resort, the committee members dispersed.
Each was given some of the R&D money and it was agreed that each would put forth the candidate of their choice and all would approve.
The result: In one case, the wife of an owner known for sleeping with the teams' players is now a bona fide hall of fame membress. (Her husband once traded a player enjoying her favors for a used bat and a pair of sliding pads - also used but no one knows by whom.)
Hockey is not too bad. At least it is located where no one would be so stupid as to refer to Grant Fuhr as an African-American. But, with all the recent furor about Wayne Gretzky's daughter, they might be considering publishing a "Ice-Suit Edition" of their Newsletter.
What's left?
Golf? Well, there were two of them but they merged. The only bad thing I can say about golf is that during my one visit to The Country Club in Brookline (That's where Julius Boros won.) the peanuts at the bar were disgustingly stale. Those stuffy old yankees gobbled them up anyway.
I think that is hall-worthy news.
Tennis? Ahhh! now there is purity in its most virgin form.
It is so pure that one cannot even criticize the fact that the players wear white after Labor Day. Plus, it is in one of America's earliest capitol cities.
So, back to Canton - one of the top five most deteriorating cities in a state that leads the Nation in the number of cities that are in decline.
The NFL super store is probably keeping the city of Canton afloat. (An interesting word "afloat" because, up until just recently, the Cuyahoga could be used to portray the Sea of Galilee and people could be filmed walking on the surface.)
Yes; Canton pays homage to the NFL and does not have to be a bad thing.
Simply admit it and call it what it is: The NFL Hall of Fame.
In the meantime, admit there are others that have tried and give credit, when deserved, to their efforts.
Admit there are girls playing the game. (Hey! They did that in Cooperstown. Did it hurt their image? No!)
Admit and acknowledge it all.
It will only make the NFL survival and success that much more outstanding.
And, one last thing, let it not be afraid to admit that it is not perfect, that it makes and continues to make mistakes, and that it willfully and intentionally excludes information anyone can verify as correct.
I have only been to visit twice and can see no reason to go again.
Give me and maybe thousands of others, that reason.
After all, in what other gift shop can one buy anything from a Washington Redskins' book of matches to a super-size nightie for the girl of everyone's dreams?
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#13 Jeremy Crowhurst
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 03:02 PM
JWL, on 02 Apr 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:
Never mind the fact that Allen could not make a NFL roster and was maybe a worse quarterback than Bob Gagliano and Mark Vlasic and Brooks Bollinger.
Which NFL team did he try out for, and fail to make the cut? I'm pretty sure the answer is "none". He was a 6'1" African-American QB. Not a lot of them got camp invites in the 80's and 90's.
#14 Bryan
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 03:31 PM
Jeremy Crowhurst, on 02 Apr 2014 - 3:02 PM, said:
Which NFL team did he try out for, and fail to make the cut? I'm pretty sure the answer is "none". He was a 6'1" African-American QB. Not a lot of them got camp invites in the 80's and 90's.
I didn't get a camp invite in the 80's or 90's either. Where's my bust?
#15 Reaser
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 03:56 PM
Since Allen evidently can sidetrack the discussion, how about using Anthony Calvillo (future CFL HOF'er) as the example instead?
Would anyone really put him in the PFHOF? and what, we're going to put Sherdrick Bonner in the PFHOF, put him in the same room as Montana, Baugh, Unitas? Asinine . . . Who comes up with this stuff? So what, if a QB's goal is to make it to the PFHOF he should skip (and by skip I mean not be a good enough player) the NFL, hell skip the CFL, play Arena football, or hey, play in one of the million other indoor football leagues, play a long time, set league records in an inferior league, and he's a HOF'er?
#16 Jeremy Crowhurst
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 04:09 PM
Reaser, on 02 Apr 2014 - 3:56 PM, said:
Since Allen evidently can sidetrack the discussion, how about using Anthony Calvillo (future CFL HOF'er) as the example instead?
Would anyone really put him in the PFHOF? and what, we're going to put Sherdrick Bonner in the PFHOF, put him in the same room as Montana, Baugh, Unitas? Asinine . . . Who comes up with this stuff? So what, if a QB's goal is to make it to the PFHOF he should skip (and by skip I mean not be a good enough player) the NFL, hell skip the CFL, play Arena football, or hey, play in one of the million other indoor football leagues, play a long time, set league records in an inferior league, and he's a HOF'er?
I thought the point you made above was a pretty good final word on the topic -- CFL is a different game than American football.
As for who comes up with it, probably my fellow Canadians seeking validation, sportswriters on a slow day, and -- perhaps most commonly in the last decade or so -- Doug Flutie fans who think he should be in Canton. I've seen lots of ink about Flutie's numbers as a "pro" making him supposedly worthy of the HoF, but this is the first time I've seen Damon Allen's name thrown up there.
#17 Jeremy Crowhurst
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 04:14 PM
Bryan, on 02 Apr 2014 - 3:31 PM, said:
I didn't get a camp invite in the 80's or 90's either. Where's my bust?
I guess you're more of a "Hall of Very Good" guy.
#18 JWL
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 04:43 PM
Jeremy Crowhurst, on 02 Apr 2014 - 3:02 PM, said:
Which NFL team did he try out for, and fail to make the cut? I'm pretty sure the answer is "none". He was a 6'1" African-American QB. Not a lot of them got camp invites in the 80's and 90's.
Maybe he never did try out. The Allen message board fiasco may have been from a half dozen years ago now. I recall some mention of a NFL tryout, but maybe that was from me and I am just recalling incorrectly. It is possible that I wrote something like, "If he was so good how come he didn't play in the NFL?"
I believe I did see him play once or twice and this was after Warren Moon and Doug Williams had NFL success. His race could not have been an issue.
#19 BD Sullivan
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 05:17 PM
Jeremy Crowhurst, on 02 Apr 2014 - 3:02 PM, said:
Which NFL team did he try out for, and fail to make the cut? I'm pretty sure the answer is "none". He was a 6'1" African-American QB. Not a lot of them got camp invites in the 80's and 90's.
He was a territorial selection of the USFL's Los Angeles Express, though they already had Steve Young, not to mention being on the road to financial collapse--much like the league itself.
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 06:57 PM
BD Sullivan, on 02 Apr 2014 - 5:17 PM, said:
He was a territorial selection of the USFL's Los Angeles Express, though they already had Steve Young, not to mention being on the road to financial collapse--much like the league itself.
Speaking of the USFL, had Donald Trump been less pig headed - yes thats a BIG IF. Could 4-5 USFL teams have merged into the NFL and would Herschel Walker be in the Hall. The Invaders, Stars, Generals, Gamblers and Express could have been candidates. So the Oilers then flee Houston a few years early, the Raiders flee LA a few years early and the Invaders and Generals and Stars relocate.
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oldecapecod 11
Is it an NFL Hall of Fame or a Pro Football Hall of Fame
Started by John Grasso, Apr 02 2014 07:54 AM
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#21 Versatile John
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:09 PM
The closest Damon Allen will get to the Pro Football Hall of Fame will be when he visits his brother's bust in Canton.
#22 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:43 PM
NWebster
"...and Generals and Stars relocate."
Why the Generals?
New York could have and can support three teams. Long Island is virtually untapped and a core of Titans / Jets supporters are just waiting and hoping for an opportunity to roar.
#23 Teo
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:08 PM
NWebster, on 02 Apr 2014 - 6:57 PM, said:
Speaking of the USFL, had Donald Trump been less pig headed - yes thats a BIG IF. Could 4-5 USFL teams have merged into the NFL and would Herschel Walker be in the Hall. The Invaders, Stars, Generals, Gamblers and Express could have been candidates. So the Oilers then flee Houston a few years early, the Raiders flee LA a few years early and the Invaders and Generals and Stars relocate.
The Express were a fiasco, the L.A. Coliseum was so empty when they played that even their owner had to relinquish the team for the final season (as the Chicago Blitz). The USFL feared that if both Chicago an Los Angeles were without a team, ABC would drop their Sunday TV telecasts, so they kept the Express and dropped the Blitz. For the final Express home game, they played in a 3,000 stadium at Pierce College in San Bernardino Valley.
But I think that the Jacksonville Bulls and maybe the Memphis Showboats would've been strong candidates. I bet that without the Bulls' attendance (i believe there were the biggest in USFL history) the Jaguars wouldn't have existed in Jacksonville a decade later.
#24 Teo
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:14 PM
Versatile John, on 02 Apr 2014 - 7:09 PM, said:
The closest Damon Allen will get to the Pro Football Hall of Fame will be when he visits his brother's bust in Canton.
Something interesting about the Canadian Football Hall of Fame is that they also induct amateur/college players, coaches and contributors (named "builders" down there). For the past five years a former CIS (Canadian NCAA) player has been inducted each year based solely in his college resumè (although most of them also played in the CFL later, albeit not as an All-Star player).
In the United States there is also a College Football Hall of Fame, and many players are inducted in both the Pro and in the College Hall of Fames (examples: Jim Brown, Walter Payton, Roger Staubach, Bob Lilly, Randy White, Barry Sanders, Deion Sanders, etc.) and there are a few players in both the College and Canadian Halls (Doug Flutie).
#25 NWebster
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 10:32 PM
oldecapecod 11, on 02 Apr 2014 - 7:43 PM, said:
NWebster
"...and Generals and Stars relocate."Why the Generals?
New York could have and can support three teams. Long Island is virtually untapped and a core of Titans / Jets supporters are just waiting and hoping for an opportunity to roar.
ok should admit, that unlike most posts I threw that out there without much thought. But I do believe that you could have made made 3-4 borderline NFL teMs from USFL rosters. Nothing lime the Browns in 1950 - but 4-5 win teams.
#26 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 11:15 PM
NWebster
"ok..."
There was no question about the number of teams or the validity of the projection.
It simply stated the Generals would not have had to relocate because there is room in New York for a third NFL franchise and I believe it will happen in the expansion following the next expansion.
There are nearly 8-million people living on Long Island and the demographics are more far favorable than a number of current NFL cities such as Cincinnati, Cleveland, and Detroit to name just a few.
In fact, the State of New York could have its own Conference thus assuring the biggest market in the world at least one playoff game every season. That is a Madison Avenue delight.
The 8-million does not include, of course, a peripheral fan base in places like Staten Island, Westchester and Rockland Counties, Southern Connecticut and the biggest prize of all - excess fans from the Boroughs of The Bronx and Manhattan.
Former Secretary of Defense Charles Wilson once said "...because for years I thought what was good for our country was good for General Motors, and vice versa."
It could be said that what is good for New York would certainly be good for the National Football League which has already become bigger than US Steel.
Add to all this the following: a third NFL team in metro-New York City would likely deny that market to the next upstart league to come along because a sports organization without the city of New York would have about the same chance of survival as Charles Manson has to become the next Pope.
#27 Moran
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 11:16 PM
I thought this thread might touch on some candidates from the pre-1920 era-
#28 Jeremy Crowhurst
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 01:30 AM
I wasn't yet a fan of football at the time, but my sense from what I've read is that the NFL/USFL situation (from the NFL's perspective at least) was out and out total war. The USFL went after their players, something the AFL and AAFC didn't do, so the degree of animosity was much higher. So was there really any chance at all that the NFL would have brought in any of their teams?
#29 John Grasso
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 07:51 AM
My original point was if it's a "Professional Football" Hall of Fame it should acknowledge that
there are others who play or have played "professional football" besides those in the NFL.
The fact that there are other Halls of Fame for other forms of pro football should have no
bearing on whether the "Professional Football" Hall in Canton should exclude them.
That doesn't mean that they were as good as NFL players but excelled within their own leagues.
Comparing Damon Allen's CFL career with those of NFL players is like
comparing Joe Montana with Cal Hubbard. Was Montana a "better" player than Hubbard?
They both excelled at their own positions within their eras.
#30 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 10:24 AM
John Grasso
"My original point..."
There are some here who understood your original query and responded in kind.
The operation of the Canton facility belies its name. It does not cater to professional football. It caters to and serves what is dictated by one professional football league, albeit the most successful professional league in history.
When you are at the top, I suppose you can call yourself anything you wish but, regardless of corporate filing or an otherwise choice of fictitious name, it is what it is: a hall of fame for the National Football League - no more and no less.
The story is as old as war: History is written by the winners. The NFL is the winner. The hall of fame serves.
Jeremy
"I wasn't..."
The A-AFC had little need to go after NFL players. Cleveland proved that immediately following the merger.
The AFL and NFL had rather aggressive and humorous bidding wars. Contracts were far more restrictive by the time the AFL came along (We are talking of the 1960 version, assumedly.) and the AFL teams did not need to spend their money paying more lawyers.
(Is it true that at the world's end, the last people standing will be lawyers fighting over checks?)
Was it not the NFL that completed the first "raid" of a player?
I think so. I think the name was Gogolak?
Moran
"I thought..."
For sure it would be, Mike, if there were more who hoped the hall stood true to its name.
I suppose prior to 1920 the word professional had a different meaning for some although, in reality, I think not.
It's meaning is simply ignored - as are most other professional football leagues.
#31 BD Sullivan
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 11:03 AM
Jeremy Crowhurst, on 03 Apr 2014 - 01:30 AM, said:
I wasn't yet a fan of football at the time, but my sense from what I've read is that the NFL/USFL situation (from the NFL's perspective at least) was out and out total war. The USFL went after their players, something the AFL and AAFC didn't do, so the degree of animosity was much higher. So was there really any chance at all that the NFL would have brought in any of their teams?
There supposedly was a push to move up the Draft to combat the wave of early signings by the USFL (especially by Bobby Beathard), but Pete Rozelle put out a BS statement about how the teams liked to have that extra time to assess prospects--which annoyed Beathard. In other words, Rozelle was content if the USFL got a few big-name players, since he knew they couldn't sign every big name.
Rozelle did call the situation pretty well, having been through similar battles with the AFL and WFL. He said that eventually the USFL would file an antitrust lawsuit, and call for a merger, which they did. The difference with the other leagues is that the USFL actually won its lawsuit. However, due to its financial incompetence, they only were awarded the infamous $3.
#32 Reaser
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 12:38 PM
John Grasso, on 03 Apr 2014 - 07:51 AM, said:
That doesn't mean that they were as good as NFL players but excelled within their own leagues.
Comparing Damon Allen's CFL career with those of NFL players is like
comparing Joe Montana with Cal Hubbard. Was Montana a "better" player than Hubbard?
They both excelled at their own positions within their eras.
"excelled within their own leagues" would only make sense if the leagues were comparable (they aren't, especially in the time frame being discussed, talent level and of course one is Canadian football and one is American football) ... This isn't European football (hey, "professional football" Messi should end up in Canton someday!) where you have some of the best players playing in England, some in Spain, some in Germany, etc ... where leagues (at least the top teams) are on par. This is American Football, where there isn't currently - and hasn't been for some time - a league comparable to the NFL.
AAFC, AFL, USFL, WFL, Independents and other leagues of 20's-40's, and of course Pre-1920's, all playing professional American football. Each league or team is a case by case basis, let's use the AAFC as the example; on or nearly on par with NFL, AAFC accomplishments should be treated as such, plus players weren't in the AAFC because they weren't good enough to play in the NFL, which is the HUGE difference to what this topic is, which is putting in players not good enough to play at the highest level in the PFHOF, which makes absolutely no sense.
Great comparison though, Cal Hubbard was the best tackle in football in his era, Montana was the best QB in his era, Damon Allen was nowhere near the best (American football) QB in his era (hence why he wasn't in the NFL) ... so that makes a lot of sense?
Great point by Michael though, maybe someone like Peggy Parratt? That's a different topic though, the best players pre-1920 are the best professional (American) football players of that time, and this topic is about putting in players who aren't even good enough to play at the highest level of the sport (the sport being American football) . . . So would probably be a disservice to talk about the BEST players of pre-1920 and include them in the same pool as Arena Football players and CFL players of more moden times (i.e. players not good enough to play in the NFL), completely different categories, best players as opposed to not ... Pre-1920 is a great idea for it's own thread though, I would think.
#33 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 12:43 PM
As far as being inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame, it would be hard to find someone who had never played in the National Football League. There just haven't been any other leagues of "American football" that have lasted more than ten years, and very few inductees have careers of less than ten years. The AFL made it a whole decade, and then its franchises became ten NFL teams. Other than that, the major competitors went four years (AAFC), three years (USFL), two years (WFL and a couple of other AFLs) if they were lucky enough to get past the first season. I tend to agree with the view that Canadian football and Arena football would be separate sports, in the same way that rugby union and rugby football are.
Still, it would be an interesting question-- if one person, with no significant connection to the NFL, was to be enshrined for making a significant impact on the history of pro football, who would be the front runner? It would take another thread, and there would probably be all sorts of catcalls and boos and hisses at the suggestions, so perhaps it's not a big deal if it's never raised.
#34 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 01:27 PM
Mark L. Ford
"...one person, with no significant connection to the NFL..."
Wearing ear-muffs to avoid catcalls and boos and hisses;
clad, with visor lowered, in the family armor of the Clan Forsyth;
and mounted upon the trusted war horse for escape amid bombardment do so solemnly suggest:
Wilfred Feinberg, who, as required by his seat, could have no connection - significant or otherwise - to the NFL.
(Season tickets, game or games attendance, and / or viewing televised games at any level did not and does not constitute a "connection.")
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#35 Bryan
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 01:32 PM
Mark L. Ford, on 03 Apr 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:
Still, it would be an interesting question-- if one person, with no significant connection to the NFL, was to be enshrined for making a significant impact on the history of pro football, who would be the front runner? It would take another thread, and there would probably be all sorts of catcalls and boos and hisses at the suggestions, so perhaps it's not a big deal if it's never raised.
Teddy Roosevelt
He's on my Mt. Rushmore of unconnected NFL contributors.
#36 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 01:46 PM
And, as Mr. Borglum would have it, he's on everyone's Mt. Rushmore.... If T.R. hadn't been an athlete, it's possible that the game would have become as obsolete as the six-day bicycle race, and that soccer or rugby would have been the autumn sport.
#37 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 02:28 PM
I didn't notice it until today, but the mission statement of the PFHOF has changed, reworded to something that one might cite as an example of "circular reasoning". I was always used to the one that stated that the first mission was "To honor individuals who have made outstanding contributions to professional football", which sort of defined the criteria for enshrinement. This was followed by preserving its history, educating the public and promoting the sport.
Well, missions two and four are still there, but the mission statement now is that "The Pro Football Hall of Fame will continue to be the world’s leading Sports Hall of Fame committed to 1. Celebrating excellence achieved by Hall of Famers...." Put another way, the Pro Football Hall of Fame honors people who should be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
#38 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 02:48 PM
Mark L. Ford
"...six-day bicycle race, and that soccer or rugby..."
The bicycle thing might have succeeded if they had cut the duration to three or four days.
Ask Robert Redford. The novel "Six Days of the Condor" was filmed as "Three Days of the Condor" and was a mild success. (Very Mild!)
But, if they allowed bicycles in the image of those Greek chariots with the blades to cut the opposition's wheels, we might have never needed NASCAR.
Rugby? Maybe... but with the expanded acceptance of some persuasions, it is hard to imagine some guy scurrying about beneath all those bent over bodies?
Soccer? Never... Americans (USA version) would find something odd about a proposed national pastime that did not allow the use of hands and encouraged hitting the ball with the head.
We probably would have seen the expansion of Roller Derby.
On a cheerier note, just think: If football had been "invented" a few years sooner, we would have never seen the horrible waste of humanity that was the War of Southern Secession.
The Harvards and Yales of the North would have just kicked butt and it would have been settled.
'Course "today," the Alabamas and Florida States would be makin' some changes.
#39 PowderedH2O
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 03:22 PM
Does the HOF have any connection with the NFL like the baseball one does? Meaning, if a player were banned by the NFL, would the Pro Football HOF have to also not allow that player to be eligible for induction? Obviously, the HOF has a number of players that have been arrested/jailed after their induction, but none that were actively suspended from the NFL. Heck, for that matter, is there anyone that is currently on a lifetime suspension from the NFL?
#40 ronfitch
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 03:43 PM
PowderedH2O, on 03 Apr 2014 - 3:22 PM, said:
Does the HOF have any connection with the NFL like the baseball one does? Meaning, if a player were banned by the NFL, would the Pro Football HOF have to also not allow that player to be eligible for induction? Obviously, the HOF has a number of players that have been arrested/jailed after their induction, but none that were actively suspended from the NFL. Heck, for that matter, is there anyone that is currently on a lifetime suspension from the NFL?
Can't answer the first part, but there have been players suspeded for life, only to be reinstated. Art Schlichter, however, was banned by Rozelle for life and I don't believe that has ever been lifted. Gregg Williams, the ex-Saints' DC, is still banned indefinitely, I think.
As for current members, Paul Hornung received an indefinite suspension and sat out the '63 season. Rozelle lifted it for the '64 season.
Page 2 of 5
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Is it an NFL Hall of Fame or a Pro Football Hall of Fame
Started by John Grasso, Apr 02 2014 07:54 AM
Page 3 of 5
91 replies to this topic
#41 Reaser
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:03 PM
ronfitch, on 03 Apr 2014 - 3:43 PM, said:
Gregg Williams, the ex-Saints' DC, is still banned indefinitely, I think.
He's the DC for the Rams.
#42 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:12 PM
ronfitch
"...Paul Hornung..."
Did not Alex Karras suffer the same wrist-slapping nonsense?
Karras, by the way, was another very noteworthy player (named All-Decade and a handful of Pro Bowls) who was ignored for Canton.
Granted, he was not a golden boy with the endorsement of Saint Vincent and the blessings of "Touchdown Jesus."
#43 ronfitch
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:16 PM
oldecapecod 11, on 03 Apr 2014 - 4:12 PM, said:
ronfitch
"...Paul Hornung..."
Did not Alex Karras suffer the same wrist-slapping nonsense?
Karras, by the way, was another very noteworthy player (named All-Decade and a handful of Pro Bowls) who was ignored for Canton.
Granted, he was not a golden boy with the endorsement of Saint Vincent and the blessings of "Touchdown Jesus."
You clipped too much of my post ... I wrote, "As for current members, Paul Hornung ..."
Karras is not a member of the HoF.
#44 ronfitch
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:16 PM
Reaser, on 03 Apr 2014 - 4:03 PM, said:
He's the DC for the Rams.
Thanks, Reaser.
#45 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:30 PM
ronfitch
"...clipped..."
No; I did not "clip" your post. I simply copied the only word pertinent to my comment.
(If you read it, you will see it says "was ignored for Canton" which references Karras as one of many others for various reasons who are not in the hall.)
Karras and Hornung were part of the same suspension issue and announced simultaneously (I think.)
I would not clip you. That's 15 yards and I am too old to try to make them up.
Sorry if you felt that.
#46 JWL
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:24 PM
ronfitch, on 03 Apr 2014 - 3:43 PM, said:
Can't answer the first part, but there have been players suspeded for life, only to be reinstated. Art Schlichter, however, was banned by Rozelle for life and I don't believe that has ever been lifted. Gregg Williams, the ex-Saints' DC, is still banned indefinitely, I think.
As for current members, Paul Hornung received an indefinite suspension and sat out the '63 season. Rozelle lifted it for the '64 season.
Greg Williams is back in the league.
#47 BD Sullivan
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 07:16 PM
oldecapecod 11, on 03 Apr 2014 - 4:12 PM, said:
ronfitch
"...Paul Hornung..."
Did not Alex Karras suffer the same wrist-slapping nonsense?
Karras, by the way, was another very noteworthy player (named All-Decade and a handful of Pro Bowls) who was ignored for Canton.
Granted, he was not a golden boy with the endorsement of Saint Vincent and the blessings of "Touchdown Jesus."
Karras started fronting for a betting service after his NFL career ended, which obviously didn't show much remorse for his previous actions. Plus, Karras butted heads for so long with Lions' management and the NFL itself that he became toxic in their eyes.
#48 NWebster
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 08:11 PM
Teo, on 02 Apr 2014 - 8:08 PM, said:
The Express were a fiasco, the L.A. Coliseum was so empty when they played that even their owner had to relinquish the team for the final season (as the Chicago Blitz). The USFL feared that if both Chicago an Los Angeles were without a team, ABC would drop their Sunday TV telecasts, so they kept the Express and dropped the Blitz. For the final Express home game, they played in a 3,000 stadium at Pierce College in San Bernardino Valley.
But I think that the Jacksonville Bulls and maybe the Memphis Showboats would've been strong candidates. I bet that without the Bulls' attendance (i believe there were the biggest in USFL history) the Jaguars wouldn't have existed in Jacksonville a decade later.
The Express were certainly a financial disaster, but on the field they were a reasonable team who last I checked placed more players in the NFL than any other USFL franchise.
#49 NWebster
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 08:27 PM
BD Sullivan, on 03 Apr 2014 - 7:16 PM, said:
Karras started fronting for a betting service after his NFL career ended, which obviously didn't show much remorse for his previous actions. Plus, Karras butted heads for so long with Lions' management and the NFL itself that he became toxic in their eyes.
I've stated this elsewhere but I find Karras every bit as Hall worthy as Sapp on the field. The suspension probably hurts him, but he was hurt as much by the back half of his career coinciding with the rise of Lilly, Olsen, Page and Greene. In a different era (probably any other era) probably has 1-2 more all-pro's and is a lock. To the AP is the only All Pro that matters crowd his amazing 1962 is lost to history, though he was first team with other, and probably should have been taken over Henry Jordan that season. In 64 he was dominating but now officially in Lilly/Olsen land. Worth noting that Roger Brown's single down season over a 5-6 year run was 63 with Karras out, coincidence, I think not.
#50 NWebster
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 08:34 PM
oldecapecod 11, on 02 Apr 2014 - 11:15 PM, said:
NWebster
"ok..."
There was no question about the number of teams or the validity of the projection.
It simply stated the Generals would not have had to relocate because there is room in New York for a third NFL franchise and I believe it will happen in the expansion following the next expansion.
There are nearly 8-million people living on Long Island and the demographics are more far favorable than a number of current NFL cities such as Cincinnati, Cleveland, and Detroit to name just a few.
In fact, the State of New York could have its own Conference thus assuring the biggest market in the world at least one playoff game every season. That is a Madison Avenue delight.
The 8-million does not include, of course, a peripheral fan base in places like Staten Island, Westchester and Rockland Counties, Southern Connecticut and the biggest prize of all - excess fans from the Boroughs of The Bronx and Manhattan.
Former Secretary of Defense Charles Wilson once said "...because for years I thought what was good for our country was good for General Motors, and vice versa."
It could be said that what is good for New York would certainly be good for the National Football League which has already become bigger than US Steel.
Add to all this the following: a third NFL team in metro-New York City would likely deny that market to the next upstart league to come along because a sports organization without the city of New York would have about the same chance of survival as Charles Manson has to become the next Pope.
I personally totally agree - I think the question is would mr Mara and Hess have agreed? Al Davis wouldn't have blocked the Express, he probably already had thoughts about a return to Oakland.
#51 luckyshow
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 09:01 PM
1) I think pre-NFL pro history could be part of Canton, including inductions. Is Jim Thorpe in the HOF for his middling NFL play or is his past with Canton before the league began, included in his worthiness?
2) There might be other inductions, such as the Cardinals who have longevity on their side. A survivor.
3) There were also Negro football teams. No league, but barnstormers. Dave Myers could be considered throwing in such play. I also don't think admitting Negro players is a sham or disgrace as stated above. The process for admitting members is besides the point. As if politics has not gone into all HOFs admittance voting over the years.
4) I agree that CFL, USFL, the three major AFLs before the last one, are not really a valid point since no one who played for them would rate on that specific participation.
5) Teddy Roosevelt is ridiculous. Perhaps his threats saved football, but over the years, so did Stagg and Camp. They were the ones tweaking the rules and regs until they finally got it right. They stopped mass and momentum plays in the later 1890s after the first broo ha ha over violence and severe injuries and deaths. It was these men, in a purportedly amateur sport who kept changing the rules that made football more palatable and popular. And this could also be said to have led to pro football in the NFL. These rule changes "saved" football many times, but to them professional sports was anathema, best left to prize fights..
6) I think the basketball HOF is done correct. While NBA might be superior to FIBA, etc, I don't think this is the point. Would the Rens be able to beat today's 76ers? I don't know. It is relative over time. Plus they innovated. Similar comparisons with the women's game and perhaps ome mostly non-NBA pros like Oscar Schmidt or Andrew Gaze, Nikos Galis who did their best work perhaps outside the NBA. Anyway I think this approach works well with Springfield. Also when baseball has added importance given to Negro Leagues or women, this only adds to popularity and attendance.
I know little of the hockey HOF. Do they respect the WHL? Or the colorful long past histories?
Anyway I do think if the use of overtime to break ties was originally thought of and sometimes used by non-NFL leagues, this could be a sort of admittance to the HOF if done right. Do they even remotely do anything about such past historic achievements?
#52 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 09:42 PM
While Jim Thorpe was past his prime as an athlete by 1920, he did give the APFA instant recognition in the press by agreeing to serve as the league's first President, and to appear with his Canton Bulldogs in the first attempt at a pro football league. The only comparable example I can think of was how people felt about the USFL before, and after, Herschel Walker signed with the New Jersey Generals, and Thorpe was light years ahead of Walker in popularity.
It's true that there were some All-Negro barnstorming teams, but nothing like the Negro League baseball organization, or even the barnstorming basketball teams like the New York Renaissance or the Harlem Globetrotters of the pre-1950 era. The most successful of the teams were three unrelated groups called the Brown Bombers (New York, Chicago and Norfolk) who would play a handful of games every year, sometimes against minor league teams--- Tod Maher did exhaustive research on this 25 years ago and it's interesting reading
http://www.profootba...r/11-05-384.pdf
Economics would be the main reason for nothing similar. Football teams were expensive to operate, simply because there was more equipment and larger rosters.
Finally, although there were some outstanding black college players in that era, there were no black pro stars that one could consider the gridiron equivalent of Josh Gibson or Buck Leonard.
I think it would be tokenism at its worst to try to enshrine whoever might be considered the best member of a black team from the segregated era.
#53 Bob Gill
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 09:52 PM
If the Hall of Fame ever decides to honor a black player from 1933-46, the only real choice is Kenny Washington. He obviously would've been in the NFL, and probably a star, if not for the ban. As it was, he was the best player in the Pacific Coast League in 1940, '41 and '45, and the best player in the West Coast AFL in 1944. Nobody else from that time comes close to him, as far as a Hall of Fame case.
#54 Bryan
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luckyshow, on 03 Apr 2014 - 9:01 PM, said:
5) Teddy Roosevelt is ridiculous. Perhaps his threats saved football, but over the years, so did Stagg and Camp. They were the ones tweaking the rules and regs until they finally got it right. They stopped mass and momentum plays in the later 1890s after the first broo ha ha over violence and severe injuries and deaths. It was these men, in a purportedly amateur sport who kept changing the rules that made football more palatable and popular. And this could also be said to have led to pro football in the NFL. These rule changes "saved" football many times, but to them professional sports was anathema, best left to prize fights..
6) I think the basketball HOF is done correct. While NBA might be superior to FIBA, etc, I don't think this is the point. Would the Rens be able to beat today's 76ers? I don't know. It is relative over time. Plus they innovated. Similar comparisons with the women's game and perhaps ome mostly non-NBA pros like Oscar Schmidt or Andrew Gaze, Nikos Galis who did their best work perhaps outside the NBA. Anyway I think this approach works well with Springfield. Also when baseball has added importance given to Negro Leagues or women, this only adds to popularity and attendance.
I know little of the hockey HOF. Do they respect the WHL? Or the colorful long past histories?
Anyway I do think if the use of overtime to break ties was originally thought of and sometimes used by non-NFL leagues, this could be a sort of admittance to the HOF if done right. Do they even remotely do anything about such past historic achievements?
5) I wasn't serious. Roosevelt was a convenient Mt Rushmore choice, because he is already on Mt Rushmore. Mentioning old football coaches like Stagg and Camp is taking the easy way out. What about Carl Lindemann, the NBC exec who gave the AFL their big 5yr/$36M TV contract in 1964, pretty much ensuring the long-term survival of that league?
6) The NBA might be superior to FIBA?? And by your implication, some people think the point of the basketball HOF is to "prove" that the NBA is superior to FIBA? The NFL doesn't have the international/female element, but the basketball HOF also is a mess simply from the college/pro angle, because they combine the two. How difficult is it to have seperate college and pro basketball HOFs? How can a voter assess Rick Mount's 3 years at Purdue versus Dennis Johnson's long NBA career? Also, I don't think people are making the trip to Cooperstown because that HOF gave added importance to women. And if the motiviation for giving added importance to women is to increase the HOF's attendance, then that level of crass self-service should be criticized.
In a general sense, I'm not understanding how the Pro Football Hall of Fame "recongnizing" other pro leagues somehow equates to players from lesser leagues being enshrined. So some non-NFL league came up with the brilliant idea of using overtime to break ties...does that mean all their good players should be in Canton? The USFL came up with the instant replay challenge system...so do we put Kelvin Bryant alongside Walter Payton?
#55 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 04 April 2014 - 09:10 AM
Mark L. Ford
"...outstanding black college players..."
As frightening as it might appear, the exclusion of black players WAS NOT limited to the NFL.
A good (actually, bad) example is the SEC.
That conference excluded blacks by charter and it was a long time until that "Rule" was relaxed.
(Read a little bit about "The Moving Van" for more detail.)
I don't recall the year and I am not going to look it up (Someone here will have that data right on the tips of her or his fingers.) but, when the SEC "changed" its rule, someone asked Bear Bryant for his thoughts.
His answer: "I don't care who they let into the school as long as he can run with a football."
PS "The Moving Van" was Steve.
#56 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 04 April 2014 - 10:50 AM
Bryan
"...What about Carl Lindemann..."
Long before Lindemann, there was Channel 5 in New York - the Dumont Television Network.
It was the "third fiddle" to CBS and NBC and Channel 7, ABC, was just gearing up.
Channel 11, WPIX, had the Yankees; Channel 9, WOR, had the Giants and no one really wanted the Dodgers. (Maybe Brooklyn did not have electricity yet?)
Anyway, Dumont gave a guy named Roone Arledge his first media job and the rest is history.
Arledge gave the WORLD "Monday Night Football" and that, more than anything, gave the NFL the push it needed. It was no longer just a "Sports Page" item.
It was social - if you did not watch, you were excluded from half the Tuesday morning conversations in America (US version and more.)
It was educational - Roone gave the planet Howard Cosell and Howard had the most profound impact on sports journalism that the world will ever see.
It was sexy - the women drooled over Frank Gifford and, secretly, wanted to sneak away with Dandy Don.
It was violence - people hoped Alex Karras would knock the snot out of the neighborhood bully.
And, it was profitable - ABC could demand whatever they wanted per advertising minute and the NFL took notice.
#57 ronfitch
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Posted 04 April 2014 - 11:21 AM
oldecapecod 11, on 03 Apr 2014 - 4:30 PM, said:
ronfitch
"...clipped..."
No; I did not "clip" your post. I simply copied the only word pertinent to my comment.
(If you read it, you will see it says "was ignored for Canton" which references Karras as one of many others for various reasons who are not in the hall.)
Karras and Hornung were part of the same suspension issue and announced simultaneously (I think.)
I would not clip you. That's 15 yards and I am too old to try to make them up.
Sorry if you felt that.
Hee ... sorry 'bout that, Cod.
I tried to "like" your post about clipping but was informed that I have hit my quota of "like" for the day (which is apparently zero). Flag on me.
#58 ronfitch
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Posted 04 April 2014 - 11:34 AM
Bryan, on 04 Apr 2014 - 07:47 AM, said:
5) I wasn't serious. Roosevelt was a convenient Mt Rushmore choice, because he is already on Mt Rushmore.
Bryan, on 04 Apr 2014 - 07:47 AM, said:
Took the kid to Mt. Rushmore last summer, which despite the drive (from anywhere, I am guessing, unless you already live in the Dakotas) was much cooler than I would have imagined. Great state parks, great camping, Rushmore itself is an amazing feat of engineering and the exhibits/movies/etc. are great if you are into history (you know, like us).
One thing that stuck out to me from materials there was the implication that Roosevelt's inclusion in the carving was heavily influenced by the sculptor's Borglum's personal relationship with Teddy. Not sure who - if anybody - I would replace Roosevelt with, but that stuck in my mind. And that the Jefferson carving was actually started on the right side of Washington and they had to scrap it because the rock turned out to not work out. And, of course, just how incredibly cool that thing is in person.
#59 byron
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Posted 04 April 2014 - 04:10 PM
Teddy Roosevelt is ridiculous. Perhaps his threats saved football, but over the years, so did Stagg and Camp. They were the ones tweaking the rules and regs until they finally got it right. They stopped mass and momentum plays in the later 1890s after the first broo ha ha over violence and severe injuries and deaths. It was these men, in a purportedly amateur sport who kept changing the rules that made football more palatable and popular.
Roosevelt simply mirrored the public outcry of the time. That he held the highest office had impact but was not a deciding factor IMHO. Owners and coaches were not continually "tweaking the rules" of the game unless they had a reason to do so (much like today). Mass and Momentum plays were made illegal in 1906 (ironically the roll block into the back of the DL player's legs began to be used around this time as well). This was all done in response to the public outcry against "too many deaths" in the league each season. This issue was a serious black-eye to a fairly young league trying to mark its place in American sports. They made the necessary changes to make the game safer because if they didn't they faced a very real threat to the game's continued existence. Fortunately, their ideas were generally good one and propelled the game forward instead of sinking it.
As for Teddy on Mt. Rushmore? In my opinion he belongs there. Great man, great President.
#60 luckyshow
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Posted 04 April 2014 - 05:16 PM
In the mid 1890s there was a well known injury, maybe death in a big annual game in Springfield, Mass., between Harvard and Yale. After this (what were later called) Ivy League schools stopped playing in large pribate stadiums as they had been doing, pulling back to campus fields for the most part. For almost 3 decades. And I think some of the dangerous parts of the game began to be changed. Maybe the Flying Wedge was banned?
One can not an approximately 5 to 10 year lull in football, a pullback of sorts. Has anyone ever done a year by year compilation of either the football related fatalities; or rule changes?
Most of the rule changes over time were for the betterment of the game. At least if the basic game of today is considered pretty good (except they are always bitching about the XP. In c.1920, they were determined to make it easier, almost automatic. I think they succeeded at that.
I think the extra point change around that time was a bad rule change. Centering the ball, especially.
But 4 downs to make 10 yards, seems pretty good. Canada does it the "old fashioned" way and not sure if it's better, 3 downs to make 5. They also kept the longer field, but added an enormous end zone, and the rouge. I don't think the Single was ever a part of American football. Nor after the first decade or so, were there 12 a side....
Anyway, my comment on Teddy was mostly about how it would just be incidental if his helping change or save the game, helped the NFL 15 years later. Thus I referenced Camp and Stagg, et al, and how their rule changes did similar/ Where would pro football be without the forward pass? Or the smaller field? For instance.
Yes, T. Roosevelt deserves to be on Mt. Rushmore. He also innovated some police procedures while Commish in New York. I just fault him on his Bully Great White Fleet, the imperialistic impulses and such. He loved war, the idea of war, the glamor and honor of war,, etc., until his son died in war.
Imagine a lesser Mt. Rushmore with Polk, Fillmore, Harrison and Buchanan (Have I chosen well the worst four,?)
Page 3 of 5
oldecapecod 11
N.B. "Split Archive" pp1, 2, 3 here; pp 4 & 5 to follow
Is it an NFL Hall of Fame or a Pro Football Hall of Fame (Part 1)
Started by John Grasso, Apr 02 2014 07:54 AM
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#1 John Grasso
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:54 AM
In another thread mention is made of Damon Allen and the fact that he should not be
considered for the Pro Football Hall of Fame. I'm curious though - is it a Pro Football
Hall of Fame or just a Hall of Fame for the NFL? I looked at the Hall's website, mission
statement and selection process and don't see anything to clarify it.
The Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame recognizes non-NBA players for their
contribution to basketball. The Baseball Hall (after some arm-twisting) recognizes
Negro League players. Shouldn't the Pro Football Hall also recognize Canadian League
players? And even Arena League players?
#2 Citizen
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:58 AM
Whether or not it's ever officially acknowledged as such, it's definitely the NFL Hall of Fame.
#3 Bryan
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 09:04 AM
I think the Pro Football Hall of Fame encompasses the APFA, NFL, AAFC, and AFL. I think the CFL has their own Hall of Fame...it would probably be a more appropriate place for Damon Allen than the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
The Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame is a complete mess. Dennis Johnson can be bumped from a ballot by an Eastern European women's player.
#4 conace21
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 09:35 AM
It's not officially the NFL Hall of Fame, and Marion Motley and Billy Shaw were inducted for their work in the AAFC and AFL, respectively. It seeks to represent the highest levels of professional football, and the WFL, USFL, Arena League, and CFL all fall short. IIRC, the HOF did have an exhibit dedicated to these other leagues.
#5 ronfitch
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 11:00 AM
Bryan, on 02 Apr 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:
I think the Pro Football Hall of Fame encompasses the APFA, NFL, AAFC, and AFL. I think the CFL has their own Hall of Fame...it would probably be a more appropriate place for Damon Allen than the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
The Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame is a complete mess. Dennis Johnson can be bumped from a ballot by an Eastern European women's player.
The CFL does have its own ... http://www.cfhof.ca/
Bud Grant and Warren Moon are in both the Canadian Football Hall of Fame and the Pro Football Hall of Fame, Grant as a "builder" in the CFHoF and coach in the PFHoF and Moon as the only player in both.
#6 Reaser
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 11:42 AM
John Grasso, on 02 Apr 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:
I'm curious though - is it a Pro Football Hall of Fame or just a Hall of Fame for the NFL?
Shouldn't the Pro Football Hall also recognize Canadian League
players? And even Arena League players?
The Baseball Hall (after some arm-twisting) recognizes
Negro League players. Shouldn't the Pro Football Hall also recognize Canadian League
players? And even Arena League players?
It's for Pro Football.
Both the CFL and Arena Football have their own HOF's and for good reason.
The PFHOF is for the sport of American football. Canadian football isn't American football. Arena football is an entirely different sport.
This discussion has been had here multiple times, people get caught up on the wrong thing, "Football", if you want to go that route then there's Australian Football (with the better known "AFL" worldwide), or you know, 'soccer', pretty much every country has their own football. The (American) PFHOF isn't a catch-all for all forms of "football", it's for the best players (and contributors) in the best sport in America.
Did Negro League players really get compared to Arena Football players? Yikes . . .
Though profits are important, the sport must take precedence over the business
#7 Reaser
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 11:51 AM
Bryan, on 02 Apr 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:
The Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame is a complete mess.
No kidding, it's the worst of the major HOF's.
I guess at least no one has started to campaign for legendary Slamball players to be inducted . . . yet.
Though profits are important, the sport must take precedence over the business
#8 BD Sullivan
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 12:30 PM
The PFHOF is considered separate from the NFL, but I don't think there's ever been any serious consideration of including CFL players. All the other leagues had such a short life span that they get passed over, regardless of how dominant someone might have been in that department. Obviously, the cases of Motley and Shaw are the exceptions, rather than the rule.
#9 JWL
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 12:49 PM
Reaser, on 02 Apr 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:
No kidding, it's the worst of the major HOF's.
I guess at least no one has started to campaign for legendary Slamball players to be inducted . . . yet.
I never pay mind to the inductions, but sometimes learn about them while hearing sports updates on the radio or while looking at the scroll on an ESPN channel. In recent years I saw that Reggie Miller and Bernard King did not get in, but some female basketball players from Europe or Asia got inducted. I just cannot take it seriously.
#10 JWL
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 12:54 PM
The argument for Damon Allen (made by multiple people on another football forum that will remain nameless) was that he was a great pro football player. Therefore, he should be immortalized in the Pro Football Hall of Fame and his bust should be in the same room as Jim Brown and Joe Montana and company. Never mind the fact that Allen could not make a NFL roster and was maybe a worse quarterback than Bob Gagliano and Mark Vlasic and Brooks Bollinger.
#11 Reaser
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 01:53 PM
JWL, on 02 Apr 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:
Reggie Miller and Bernard King did not get in, but some female basketball players from Europe or Asia got inducted. I just cannot take it seriously.
When Reggie Miller did get in, he was part of a great class, headlined by Phil Knight . . .
#12 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 02:24 PM
The Canton facility serves the National Football League.
This is not a bad thing.
It is simply a misnomer since it does not encompass all of professional football.
It serves the most successful survivor of a relatively small group - one professional organization and that organization is the National Football League, the parent, if you will, of those groups that are embraced as accepted members of its family. Other members, legitimate or otherwise, are ignored.
There is no prototype of the perfect hall of fame.
The scope of the other institutions does not and cannot be compared with that of the NFL shrine.
Basketball is an internationally formatted activity. The Springfield, Massachusetts site acknowleges such and needs to hang its head in shame over the exclusion of so many deserving players.
But, that is true with every similar organization. There will always be those who disagree - not only about those excluded, but about those who cause the exclusion, where the "line" is drawn and who draws the line.
Witness: The "put and take" thread in this venue.
It is difficult, however, to hang a head that is already buried in sand. Other generations will tire of watching ten people run back and forth in their underwear; in fact, the switch to pajama-like attire indicates that has already started.
Note: The NFL has followed suit (Is that a pun?) with its garments which will soon resemble NASCAR entries.
Baseball lost all credibility with its Negro Leagues' catch-up nonsense a few years back.
They created a "committee," allocated a few million for R&D, gave the chair to a white ex-comm, (That's c-o-m-m, not c-o-n.) and waited for results.
After one major party at a posh resort, the committee members dispersed.
Each was given some of the R&D money and it was agreed that each would put forth the candidate of their choice and all would approve.
The result: In one case, the wife of an owner known for sleeping with the teams' players is now a bona fide hall of fame membress. (Her husband once traded a player enjoying her favors for a used bat and a pair of sliding pads - also used but no one knows by whom.)
Hockey is not too bad. At least it is located where no one would be so stupid as to refer to Grant Fuhr as an African-American. But, with all the recent furor about Wayne Gretzky's daughter, they might be considering publishing a "Ice-Suit Edition" of their Newsletter.
What's left?
Golf? Well, there were two of them but they merged. The only bad thing I can say about golf is that during my one visit to The Country Club in Brookline (That's where Julius Boros won.) the peanuts at the bar were disgustingly stale. Those stuffy old yankees gobbled them up anyway.
I think that is hall-worthy news.
Tennis? Ahhh! now there is purity in its most virgin form.
It is so pure that one cannot even criticize the fact that the players wear white after Labor Day. Plus, it is in one of America's earliest capitol cities.
So, back to Canton - one of the top five most deteriorating cities in a state that leads the Nation in the number of cities that are in decline.
The NFL super store is probably keeping the city of Canton afloat. (An interesting word "afloat" because, up until just recently, the Cuyahoga could be used to portray the Sea of Galilee and people could be filmed walking on the surface.)
Yes; Canton pays homage to the NFL and does not have to be a bad thing.
Simply admit it and call it what it is: The NFL Hall of Fame.
In the meantime, admit there are others that have tried and give credit, when deserved, to their efforts.
Admit there are girls playing the game. (Hey! They did that in Cooperstown. Did it hurt their image? No!)
Admit and acknowledge it all.
It will only make the NFL survival and success that much more outstanding.
And, one last thing, let it not be afraid to admit that it is not perfect, that it makes and continues to make mistakes, and that it willfully and intentionally excludes information anyone can verify as correct.
I have only been to visit twice and can see no reason to go again.
Give me and maybe thousands of others, that reason.
After all, in what other gift shop can one buy anything from a Washington Redskins' book of matches to a super-size nightie for the girl of everyone's dreams?
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#13 Jeremy Crowhurst
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 03:02 PM
JWL, on 02 Apr 2014 - 12:54 PM, said:
Never mind the fact that Allen could not make a NFL roster and was maybe a worse quarterback than Bob Gagliano and Mark Vlasic and Brooks Bollinger.
Which NFL team did he try out for, and fail to make the cut? I'm pretty sure the answer is "none". He was a 6'1" African-American QB. Not a lot of them got camp invites in the 80's and 90's.
#14 Bryan
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 03:31 PM
Jeremy Crowhurst, on 02 Apr 2014 - 3:02 PM, said:
Which NFL team did he try out for, and fail to make the cut? I'm pretty sure the answer is "none". He was a 6'1" African-American QB. Not a lot of them got camp invites in the 80's and 90's.
I didn't get a camp invite in the 80's or 90's either. Where's my bust?
#15 Reaser
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 03:56 PM
Since Allen evidently can sidetrack the discussion, how about using Anthony Calvillo (future CFL HOF'er) as the example instead?
Would anyone really put him in the PFHOF? and what, we're going to put Sherdrick Bonner in the PFHOF, put him in the same room as Montana, Baugh, Unitas? Asinine . . . Who comes up with this stuff? So what, if a QB's goal is to make it to the PFHOF he should skip (and by skip I mean not be a good enough player) the NFL, hell skip the CFL, play Arena football, or hey, play in one of the million other indoor football leagues, play a long time, set league records in an inferior league, and he's a HOF'er?
#16 Jeremy Crowhurst
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 04:09 PM
Reaser, on 02 Apr 2014 - 3:56 PM, said:
Since Allen evidently can sidetrack the discussion, how about using Anthony Calvillo (future CFL HOF'er) as the example instead?
Would anyone really put him in the PFHOF? and what, we're going to put Sherdrick Bonner in the PFHOF, put him in the same room as Montana, Baugh, Unitas? Asinine . . . Who comes up with this stuff? So what, if a QB's goal is to make it to the PFHOF he should skip (and by skip I mean not be a good enough player) the NFL, hell skip the CFL, play Arena football, or hey, play in one of the million other indoor football leagues, play a long time, set league records in an inferior league, and he's a HOF'er?
I thought the point you made above was a pretty good final word on the topic -- CFL is a different game than American football.
As for who comes up with it, probably my fellow Canadians seeking validation, sportswriters on a slow day, and -- perhaps most commonly in the last decade or so -- Doug Flutie fans who think he should be in Canton. I've seen lots of ink about Flutie's numbers as a "pro" making him supposedly worthy of the HoF, but this is the first time I've seen Damon Allen's name thrown up there.
#17 Jeremy Crowhurst
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 04:14 PM
Bryan, on 02 Apr 2014 - 3:31 PM, said:
I didn't get a camp invite in the 80's or 90's either. Where's my bust?
I guess you're more of a "Hall of Very Good" guy.
#18 JWL
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 04:43 PM
Jeremy Crowhurst, on 02 Apr 2014 - 3:02 PM, said:
Which NFL team did he try out for, and fail to make the cut? I'm pretty sure the answer is "none". He was a 6'1" African-American QB. Not a lot of them got camp invites in the 80's and 90's.
Maybe he never did try out. The Allen message board fiasco may have been from a half dozen years ago now. I recall some mention of a NFL tryout, but maybe that was from me and I am just recalling incorrectly. It is possible that I wrote something like, "If he was so good how come he didn't play in the NFL?"
I believe I did see him play once or twice and this was after Warren Moon and Doug Williams had NFL success. His race could not have been an issue.
#19 BD Sullivan
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 05:17 PM
Jeremy Crowhurst, on 02 Apr 2014 - 3:02 PM, said:
Which NFL team did he try out for, and fail to make the cut? I'm pretty sure the answer is "none". He was a 6'1" African-American QB. Not a lot of them got camp invites in the 80's and 90's.
He was a territorial selection of the USFL's Los Angeles Express, though they already had Steve Young, not to mention being on the road to financial collapse--much like the league itself.
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 06:57 PM
BD Sullivan, on 02 Apr 2014 - 5:17 PM, said:
He was a territorial selection of the USFL's Los Angeles Express, though they already had Steve Young, not to mention being on the road to financial collapse--much like the league itself.
Speaking of the USFL, had Donald Trump been less pig headed - yes thats a BIG IF. Could 4-5 USFL teams have merged into the NFL and would Herschel Walker be in the Hall. The Invaders, Stars, Generals, Gamblers and Express could have been candidates. So the Oilers then flee Houston a few years early, the Raiders flee LA a few years early and the Invaders and Generals and Stars relocate.
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oldecapecod 11
Is it an NFL Hall of Fame or a Pro Football Hall of Fame
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#21 Versatile John
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:09 PM
The closest Damon Allen will get to the Pro Football Hall of Fame will be when he visits his brother's bust in Canton.
#22 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 07:43 PM
NWebster
"...and Generals and Stars relocate."
Why the Generals?
New York could have and can support three teams. Long Island is virtually untapped and a core of Titans / Jets supporters are just waiting and hoping for an opportunity to roar.
#23 Teo
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:08 PM
NWebster, on 02 Apr 2014 - 6:57 PM, said:
Speaking of the USFL, had Donald Trump been less pig headed - yes thats a BIG IF. Could 4-5 USFL teams have merged into the NFL and would Herschel Walker be in the Hall. The Invaders, Stars, Generals, Gamblers and Express could have been candidates. So the Oilers then flee Houston a few years early, the Raiders flee LA a few years early and the Invaders and Generals and Stars relocate.
The Express were a fiasco, the L.A. Coliseum was so empty when they played that even their owner had to relinquish the team for the final season (as the Chicago Blitz). The USFL feared that if both Chicago an Los Angeles were without a team, ABC would drop their Sunday TV telecasts, so they kept the Express and dropped the Blitz. For the final Express home game, they played in a 3,000 stadium at Pierce College in San Bernardino Valley.
But I think that the Jacksonville Bulls and maybe the Memphis Showboats would've been strong candidates. I bet that without the Bulls' attendance (i believe there were the biggest in USFL history) the Jaguars wouldn't have existed in Jacksonville a decade later.
#24 Teo
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 08:14 PM
Versatile John, on 02 Apr 2014 - 7:09 PM, said:
The closest Damon Allen will get to the Pro Football Hall of Fame will be when he visits his brother's bust in Canton.
Something interesting about the Canadian Football Hall of Fame is that they also induct amateur/college players, coaches and contributors (named "builders" down there). For the past five years a former CIS (Canadian NCAA) player has been inducted each year based solely in his college resumè (although most of them also played in the CFL later, albeit not as an All-Star player).
In the United States there is also a College Football Hall of Fame, and many players are inducted in both the Pro and in the College Hall of Fames (examples: Jim Brown, Walter Payton, Roger Staubach, Bob Lilly, Randy White, Barry Sanders, Deion Sanders, etc.) and there are a few players in both the College and Canadian Halls (Doug Flutie).
#25 NWebster
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 10:32 PM
oldecapecod 11, on 02 Apr 2014 - 7:43 PM, said:
NWebster
"...and Generals and Stars relocate."Why the Generals?
New York could have and can support three teams. Long Island is virtually untapped and a core of Titans / Jets supporters are just waiting and hoping for an opportunity to roar.
ok should admit, that unlike most posts I threw that out there without much thought. But I do believe that you could have made made 3-4 borderline NFL teMs from USFL rosters. Nothing lime the Browns in 1950 - but 4-5 win teams.
#26 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 11:15 PM
NWebster
"ok..."
There was no question about the number of teams or the validity of the projection.
It simply stated the Generals would not have had to relocate because there is room in New York for a third NFL franchise and I believe it will happen in the expansion following the next expansion.
There are nearly 8-million people living on Long Island and the demographics are more far favorable than a number of current NFL cities such as Cincinnati, Cleveland, and Detroit to name just a few.
In fact, the State of New York could have its own Conference thus assuring the biggest market in the world at least one playoff game every season. That is a Madison Avenue delight.
The 8-million does not include, of course, a peripheral fan base in places like Staten Island, Westchester and Rockland Counties, Southern Connecticut and the biggest prize of all - excess fans from the Boroughs of The Bronx and Manhattan.
Former Secretary of Defense Charles Wilson once said "...because for years I thought what was good for our country was good for General Motors, and vice versa."
It could be said that what is good for New York would certainly be good for the National Football League which has already become bigger than US Steel.
Add to all this the following: a third NFL team in metro-New York City would likely deny that market to the next upstart league to come along because a sports organization without the city of New York would have about the same chance of survival as Charles Manson has to become the next Pope.
#27 Moran
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Posted 02 April 2014 - 11:16 PM
I thought this thread might touch on some candidates from the pre-1920 era-
#28 Jeremy Crowhurst
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 01:30 AM
I wasn't yet a fan of football at the time, but my sense from what I've read is that the NFL/USFL situation (from the NFL's perspective at least) was out and out total war. The USFL went after their players, something the AFL and AAFC didn't do, so the degree of animosity was much higher. So was there really any chance at all that the NFL would have brought in any of their teams?
#29 John Grasso
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 07:51 AM
My original point was if it's a "Professional Football" Hall of Fame it should acknowledge that
there are others who play or have played "professional football" besides those in the NFL.
The fact that there are other Halls of Fame for other forms of pro football should have no
bearing on whether the "Professional Football" Hall in Canton should exclude them.
That doesn't mean that they were as good as NFL players but excelled within their own leagues.
Comparing Damon Allen's CFL career with those of NFL players is like
comparing Joe Montana with Cal Hubbard. Was Montana a "better" player than Hubbard?
They both excelled at their own positions within their eras.
#30 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 10:24 AM
John Grasso
"My original point..."
There are some here who understood your original query and responded in kind.
The operation of the Canton facility belies its name. It does not cater to professional football. It caters to and serves what is dictated by one professional football league, albeit the most successful professional league in history.
When you are at the top, I suppose you can call yourself anything you wish but, regardless of corporate filing or an otherwise choice of fictitious name, it is what it is: a hall of fame for the National Football League - no more and no less.
The story is as old as war: History is written by the winners. The NFL is the winner. The hall of fame serves.
Jeremy
"I wasn't..."
The A-AFC had little need to go after NFL players. Cleveland proved that immediately following the merger.
The AFL and NFL had rather aggressive and humorous bidding wars. Contracts were far more restrictive by the time the AFL came along (We are talking of the 1960 version, assumedly.) and the AFL teams did not need to spend their money paying more lawyers.
(Is it true that at the world's end, the last people standing will be lawyers fighting over checks?)
Was it not the NFL that completed the first "raid" of a player?
I think so. I think the name was Gogolak?
Moran
"I thought..."
For sure it would be, Mike, if there were more who hoped the hall stood true to its name.
I suppose prior to 1920 the word professional had a different meaning for some although, in reality, I think not.
It's meaning is simply ignored - as are most other professional football leagues.
#31 BD Sullivan
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 11:03 AM
Jeremy Crowhurst, on 03 Apr 2014 - 01:30 AM, said:
I wasn't yet a fan of football at the time, but my sense from what I've read is that the NFL/USFL situation (from the NFL's perspective at least) was out and out total war. The USFL went after their players, something the AFL and AAFC didn't do, so the degree of animosity was much higher. So was there really any chance at all that the NFL would have brought in any of their teams?
There supposedly was a push to move up the Draft to combat the wave of early signings by the USFL (especially by Bobby Beathard), but Pete Rozelle put out a BS statement about how the teams liked to have that extra time to assess prospects--which annoyed Beathard. In other words, Rozelle was content if the USFL got a few big-name players, since he knew they couldn't sign every big name.
Rozelle did call the situation pretty well, having been through similar battles with the AFL and WFL. He said that eventually the USFL would file an antitrust lawsuit, and call for a merger, which they did. The difference with the other leagues is that the USFL actually won its lawsuit. However, due to its financial incompetence, they only were awarded the infamous $3.
#32 Reaser
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 12:38 PM
John Grasso, on 03 Apr 2014 - 07:51 AM, said:
That doesn't mean that they were as good as NFL players but excelled within their own leagues.
Comparing Damon Allen's CFL career with those of NFL players is like
comparing Joe Montana with Cal Hubbard. Was Montana a "better" player than Hubbard?
They both excelled at their own positions within their eras.
"excelled within their own leagues" would only make sense if the leagues were comparable (they aren't, especially in the time frame being discussed, talent level and of course one is Canadian football and one is American football) ... This isn't European football (hey, "professional football" Messi should end up in Canton someday!) where you have some of the best players playing in England, some in Spain, some in Germany, etc ... where leagues (at least the top teams) are on par. This is American Football, where there isn't currently - and hasn't been for some time - a league comparable to the NFL.
AAFC, AFL, USFL, WFL, Independents and other leagues of 20's-40's, and of course Pre-1920's, all playing professional American football. Each league or team is a case by case basis, let's use the AAFC as the example; on or nearly on par with NFL, AAFC accomplishments should be treated as such, plus players weren't in the AAFC because they weren't good enough to play in the NFL, which is the HUGE difference to what this topic is, which is putting in players not good enough to play at the highest level in the PFHOF, which makes absolutely no sense.
Great comparison though, Cal Hubbard was the best tackle in football in his era, Montana was the best QB in his era, Damon Allen was nowhere near the best (American football) QB in his era (hence why he wasn't in the NFL) ... so that makes a lot of sense?
Great point by Michael though, maybe someone like Peggy Parratt? That's a different topic though, the best players pre-1920 are the best professional (American) football players of that time, and this topic is about putting in players who aren't even good enough to play at the highest level of the sport (the sport being American football) . . . So would probably be a disservice to talk about the BEST players of pre-1920 and include them in the same pool as Arena Football players and CFL players of more moden times (i.e. players not good enough to play in the NFL), completely different categories, best players as opposed to not ... Pre-1920 is a great idea for it's own thread though, I would think.
#33 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 12:43 PM
As far as being inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame, it would be hard to find someone who had never played in the National Football League. There just haven't been any other leagues of "American football" that have lasted more than ten years, and very few inductees have careers of less than ten years. The AFL made it a whole decade, and then its franchises became ten NFL teams. Other than that, the major competitors went four years (AAFC), three years (USFL), two years (WFL and a couple of other AFLs) if they were lucky enough to get past the first season. I tend to agree with the view that Canadian football and Arena football would be separate sports, in the same way that rugby union and rugby football are.
Still, it would be an interesting question-- if one person, with no significant connection to the NFL, was to be enshrined for making a significant impact on the history of pro football, who would be the front runner? It would take another thread, and there would probably be all sorts of catcalls and boos and hisses at the suggestions, so perhaps it's not a big deal if it's never raised.
#34 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 01:27 PM
Mark L. Ford
"...one person, with no significant connection to the NFL..."
Wearing ear-muffs to avoid catcalls and boos and hisses;
clad, with visor lowered, in the family armor of the Clan Forsyth;
and mounted upon the trusted war horse for escape amid bombardment do so solemnly suggest:
Wilfred Feinberg, who, as required by his seat, could have no connection - significant or otherwise - to the NFL.
(Season tickets, game or games attendance, and / or viewing televised games at any level did not and does not constitute a "connection.")
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#35 Bryan
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 01:32 PM
Mark L. Ford, on 03 Apr 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:
Still, it would be an interesting question-- if one person, with no significant connection to the NFL, was to be enshrined for making a significant impact on the history of pro football, who would be the front runner? It would take another thread, and there would probably be all sorts of catcalls and boos and hisses at the suggestions, so perhaps it's not a big deal if it's never raised.
Teddy Roosevelt
He's on my Mt. Rushmore of unconnected NFL contributors.
#36 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 01:46 PM
And, as Mr. Borglum would have it, he's on everyone's Mt. Rushmore.... If T.R. hadn't been an athlete, it's possible that the game would have become as obsolete as the six-day bicycle race, and that soccer or rugby would have been the autumn sport.
#37 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 02:28 PM
I didn't notice it until today, but the mission statement of the PFHOF has changed, reworded to something that one might cite as an example of "circular reasoning". I was always used to the one that stated that the first mission was "To honor individuals who have made outstanding contributions to professional football", which sort of defined the criteria for enshrinement. This was followed by preserving its history, educating the public and promoting the sport.
Well, missions two and four are still there, but the mission statement now is that "The Pro Football Hall of Fame will continue to be the world’s leading Sports Hall of Fame committed to 1. Celebrating excellence achieved by Hall of Famers...." Put another way, the Pro Football Hall of Fame honors people who should be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
#38 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 02:48 PM
Mark L. Ford
"...six-day bicycle race, and that soccer or rugby..."
The bicycle thing might have succeeded if they had cut the duration to three or four days.
Ask Robert Redford. The novel "Six Days of the Condor" was filmed as "Three Days of the Condor" and was a mild success. (Very Mild!)
But, if they allowed bicycles in the image of those Greek chariots with the blades to cut the opposition's wheels, we might have never needed NASCAR.
Rugby? Maybe... but with the expanded acceptance of some persuasions, it is hard to imagine some guy scurrying about beneath all those bent over bodies?
Soccer? Never... Americans (USA version) would find something odd about a proposed national pastime that did not allow the use of hands and encouraged hitting the ball with the head.
We probably would have seen the expansion of Roller Derby.
On a cheerier note, just think: If football had been "invented" a few years sooner, we would have never seen the horrible waste of humanity that was the War of Southern Secession.
The Harvards and Yales of the North would have just kicked butt and it would have been settled.
'Course "today," the Alabamas and Florida States would be makin' some changes.
#39 PowderedH2O
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 03:22 PM
Does the HOF have any connection with the NFL like the baseball one does? Meaning, if a player were banned by the NFL, would the Pro Football HOF have to also not allow that player to be eligible for induction? Obviously, the HOF has a number of players that have been arrested/jailed after their induction, but none that were actively suspended from the NFL. Heck, for that matter, is there anyone that is currently on a lifetime suspension from the NFL?
#40 ronfitch
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 03:43 PM
PowderedH2O, on 03 Apr 2014 - 3:22 PM, said:
Does the HOF have any connection with the NFL like the baseball one does? Meaning, if a player were banned by the NFL, would the Pro Football HOF have to also not allow that player to be eligible for induction? Obviously, the HOF has a number of players that have been arrested/jailed after their induction, but none that were actively suspended from the NFL. Heck, for that matter, is there anyone that is currently on a lifetime suspension from the NFL?
Can't answer the first part, but there have been players suspeded for life, only to be reinstated. Art Schlichter, however, was banned by Rozelle for life and I don't believe that has ever been lifted. Gregg Williams, the ex-Saints' DC, is still banned indefinitely, I think.
As for current members, Paul Hornung received an indefinite suspension and sat out the '63 season. Rozelle lifted it for the '64 season.
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oldecapecod 11
Is it an NFL Hall of Fame or a Pro Football Hall of Fame
Started by John Grasso, Apr 02 2014 07:54 AM
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#41 Reaser
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:03 PM
ronfitch, on 03 Apr 2014 - 3:43 PM, said:
Gregg Williams, the ex-Saints' DC, is still banned indefinitely, I think.
He's the DC for the Rams.
#42 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:12 PM
ronfitch
"...Paul Hornung..."
Did not Alex Karras suffer the same wrist-slapping nonsense?
Karras, by the way, was another very noteworthy player (named All-Decade and a handful of Pro Bowls) who was ignored for Canton.
Granted, he was not a golden boy with the endorsement of Saint Vincent and the blessings of "Touchdown Jesus."
#43 ronfitch
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:16 PM
oldecapecod 11, on 03 Apr 2014 - 4:12 PM, said:
ronfitch
"...Paul Hornung..."
Did not Alex Karras suffer the same wrist-slapping nonsense?
Karras, by the way, was another very noteworthy player (named All-Decade and a handful of Pro Bowls) who was ignored for Canton.
Granted, he was not a golden boy with the endorsement of Saint Vincent and the blessings of "Touchdown Jesus."
You clipped too much of my post ... I wrote, "As for current members, Paul Hornung ..."
Karras is not a member of the HoF.
#44 ronfitch
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:16 PM
Reaser, on 03 Apr 2014 - 4:03 PM, said:
He's the DC for the Rams.
Thanks, Reaser.
#45 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 04:30 PM
ronfitch
"...clipped..."
No; I did not "clip" your post. I simply copied the only word pertinent to my comment.
(If you read it, you will see it says "was ignored for Canton" which references Karras as one of many others for various reasons who are not in the hall.)
Karras and Hornung were part of the same suspension issue and announced simultaneously (I think.)
I would not clip you. That's 15 yards and I am too old to try to make them up.
Sorry if you felt that.
#46 JWL
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 05:24 PM
ronfitch, on 03 Apr 2014 - 3:43 PM, said:
Can't answer the first part, but there have been players suspeded for life, only to be reinstated. Art Schlichter, however, was banned by Rozelle for life and I don't believe that has ever been lifted. Gregg Williams, the ex-Saints' DC, is still banned indefinitely, I think.
As for current members, Paul Hornung received an indefinite suspension and sat out the '63 season. Rozelle lifted it for the '64 season.
Greg Williams is back in the league.
#47 BD Sullivan
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 07:16 PM
oldecapecod 11, on 03 Apr 2014 - 4:12 PM, said:
ronfitch
"...Paul Hornung..."
Did not Alex Karras suffer the same wrist-slapping nonsense?
Karras, by the way, was another very noteworthy player (named All-Decade and a handful of Pro Bowls) who was ignored for Canton.
Granted, he was not a golden boy with the endorsement of Saint Vincent and the blessings of "Touchdown Jesus."
Karras started fronting for a betting service after his NFL career ended, which obviously didn't show much remorse for his previous actions. Plus, Karras butted heads for so long with Lions' management and the NFL itself that he became toxic in their eyes.
#48 NWebster
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 08:11 PM
Teo, on 02 Apr 2014 - 8:08 PM, said:
The Express were a fiasco, the L.A. Coliseum was so empty when they played that even their owner had to relinquish the team for the final season (as the Chicago Blitz). The USFL feared that if both Chicago an Los Angeles were without a team, ABC would drop their Sunday TV telecasts, so they kept the Express and dropped the Blitz. For the final Express home game, they played in a 3,000 stadium at Pierce College in San Bernardino Valley.
But I think that the Jacksonville Bulls and maybe the Memphis Showboats would've been strong candidates. I bet that without the Bulls' attendance (i believe there were the biggest in USFL history) the Jaguars wouldn't have existed in Jacksonville a decade later.
The Express were certainly a financial disaster, but on the field they were a reasonable team who last I checked placed more players in the NFL than any other USFL franchise.
#49 NWebster
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 08:27 PM
BD Sullivan, on 03 Apr 2014 - 7:16 PM, said:
Karras started fronting for a betting service after his NFL career ended, which obviously didn't show much remorse for his previous actions. Plus, Karras butted heads for so long with Lions' management and the NFL itself that he became toxic in their eyes.
I've stated this elsewhere but I find Karras every bit as Hall worthy as Sapp on the field. The suspension probably hurts him, but he was hurt as much by the back half of his career coinciding with the rise of Lilly, Olsen, Page and Greene. In a different era (probably any other era) probably has 1-2 more all-pro's and is a lock. To the AP is the only All Pro that matters crowd his amazing 1962 is lost to history, though he was first team with other, and probably should have been taken over Henry Jordan that season. In 64 he was dominating but now officially in Lilly/Olsen land. Worth noting that Roger Brown's single down season over a 5-6 year run was 63 with Karras out, coincidence, I think not.
#50 NWebster
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 08:34 PM
oldecapecod 11, on 02 Apr 2014 - 11:15 PM, said:
NWebster
"ok..."
There was no question about the number of teams or the validity of the projection.
It simply stated the Generals would not have had to relocate because there is room in New York for a third NFL franchise and I believe it will happen in the expansion following the next expansion.
There are nearly 8-million people living on Long Island and the demographics are more far favorable than a number of current NFL cities such as Cincinnati, Cleveland, and Detroit to name just a few.
In fact, the State of New York could have its own Conference thus assuring the biggest market in the world at least one playoff game every season. That is a Madison Avenue delight.
The 8-million does not include, of course, a peripheral fan base in places like Staten Island, Westchester and Rockland Counties, Southern Connecticut and the biggest prize of all - excess fans from the Boroughs of The Bronx and Manhattan.
Former Secretary of Defense Charles Wilson once said "...because for years I thought what was good for our country was good for General Motors, and vice versa."
It could be said that what is good for New York would certainly be good for the National Football League which has already become bigger than US Steel.
Add to all this the following: a third NFL team in metro-New York City would likely deny that market to the next upstart league to come along because a sports organization without the city of New York would have about the same chance of survival as Charles Manson has to become the next Pope.
I personally totally agree - I think the question is would mr Mara and Hess have agreed? Al Davis wouldn't have blocked the Express, he probably already had thoughts about a return to Oakland.
#51 luckyshow
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 09:01 PM
1) I think pre-NFL pro history could be part of Canton, including inductions. Is Jim Thorpe in the HOF for his middling NFL play or is his past with Canton before the league began, included in his worthiness?
2) There might be other inductions, such as the Cardinals who have longevity on their side. A survivor.
3) There were also Negro football teams. No league, but barnstormers. Dave Myers could be considered throwing in such play. I also don't think admitting Negro players is a sham or disgrace as stated above. The process for admitting members is besides the point. As if politics has not gone into all HOFs admittance voting over the years.
4) I agree that CFL, USFL, the three major AFLs before the last one, are not really a valid point since no one who played for them would rate on that specific participation.
5) Teddy Roosevelt is ridiculous. Perhaps his threats saved football, but over the years, so did Stagg and Camp. They were the ones tweaking the rules and regs until they finally got it right. They stopped mass and momentum plays in the later 1890s after the first broo ha ha over violence and severe injuries and deaths. It was these men, in a purportedly amateur sport who kept changing the rules that made football more palatable and popular. And this could also be said to have led to pro football in the NFL. These rule changes "saved" football many times, but to them professional sports was anathema, best left to prize fights..
6) I think the basketball HOF is done correct. While NBA might be superior to FIBA, etc, I don't think this is the point. Would the Rens be able to beat today's 76ers? I don't know. It is relative over time. Plus they innovated. Similar comparisons with the women's game and perhaps ome mostly non-NBA pros like Oscar Schmidt or Andrew Gaze, Nikos Galis who did their best work perhaps outside the NBA. Anyway I think this approach works well with Springfield. Also when baseball has added importance given to Negro Leagues or women, this only adds to popularity and attendance.
I know little of the hockey HOF. Do they respect the WHL? Or the colorful long past histories?
Anyway I do think if the use of overtime to break ties was originally thought of and sometimes used by non-NFL leagues, this could be a sort of admittance to the HOF if done right. Do they even remotely do anything about such past historic achievements?
#52 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 09:42 PM
While Jim Thorpe was past his prime as an athlete by 1920, he did give the APFA instant recognition in the press by agreeing to serve as the league's first President, and to appear with his Canton Bulldogs in the first attempt at a pro football league. The only comparable example I can think of was how people felt about the USFL before, and after, Herschel Walker signed with the New Jersey Generals, and Thorpe was light years ahead of Walker in popularity.
It's true that there were some All-Negro barnstorming teams, but nothing like the Negro League baseball organization, or even the barnstorming basketball teams like the New York Renaissance or the Harlem Globetrotters of the pre-1950 era. The most successful of the teams were three unrelated groups called the Brown Bombers (New York, Chicago and Norfolk) who would play a handful of games every year, sometimes against minor league teams--- Tod Maher did exhaustive research on this 25 years ago and it's interesting reading
http://www.profootba...r/11-05-384.pdf
Economics would be the main reason for nothing similar. Football teams were expensive to operate, simply because there was more equipment and larger rosters.
Finally, although there were some outstanding black college players in that era, there were no black pro stars that one could consider the gridiron equivalent of Josh Gibson or Buck Leonard.
I think it would be tokenism at its worst to try to enshrine whoever might be considered the best member of a black team from the segregated era.
#53 Bob Gill
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Posted 03 April 2014 - 09:52 PM
If the Hall of Fame ever decides to honor a black player from 1933-46, the only real choice is Kenny Washington. He obviously would've been in the NFL, and probably a star, if not for the ban. As it was, he was the best player in the Pacific Coast League in 1940, '41 and '45, and the best player in the West Coast AFL in 1944. Nobody else from that time comes close to him, as far as a Hall of Fame case.
#54 Bryan
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Posted 04 April 2014 - 07:47 AM
luckyshow, on 03 Apr 2014 - 9:01 PM, said:
5) Teddy Roosevelt is ridiculous. Perhaps his threats saved football, but over the years, so did Stagg and Camp. They were the ones tweaking the rules and regs until they finally got it right. They stopped mass and momentum plays in the later 1890s after the first broo ha ha over violence and severe injuries and deaths. It was these men, in a purportedly amateur sport who kept changing the rules that made football more palatable and popular. And this could also be said to have led to pro football in the NFL. These rule changes "saved" football many times, but to them professional sports was anathema, best left to prize fights..
6) I think the basketball HOF is done correct. While NBA might be superior to FIBA, etc, I don't think this is the point. Would the Rens be able to beat today's 76ers? I don't know. It is relative over time. Plus they innovated. Similar comparisons with the women's game and perhaps ome mostly non-NBA pros like Oscar Schmidt or Andrew Gaze, Nikos Galis who did their best work perhaps outside the NBA. Anyway I think this approach works well with Springfield. Also when baseball has added importance given to Negro Leagues or women, this only adds to popularity and attendance.
I know little of the hockey HOF. Do they respect the WHL? Or the colorful long past histories?
Anyway I do think if the use of overtime to break ties was originally thought of and sometimes used by non-NFL leagues, this could be a sort of admittance to the HOF if done right. Do they even remotely do anything about such past historic achievements?
5) I wasn't serious. Roosevelt was a convenient Mt Rushmore choice, because he is already on Mt Rushmore. Mentioning old football coaches like Stagg and Camp is taking the easy way out. What about Carl Lindemann, the NBC exec who gave the AFL their big 5yr/$36M TV contract in 1964, pretty much ensuring the long-term survival of that league?
6) The NBA might be superior to FIBA?? And by your implication, some people think the point of the basketball HOF is to "prove" that the NBA is superior to FIBA? The NFL doesn't have the international/female element, but the basketball HOF also is a mess simply from the college/pro angle, because they combine the two. How difficult is it to have seperate college and pro basketball HOFs? How can a voter assess Rick Mount's 3 years at Purdue versus Dennis Johnson's long NBA career? Also, I don't think people are making the trip to Cooperstown because that HOF gave added importance to women. And if the motiviation for giving added importance to women is to increase the HOF's attendance, then that level of crass self-service should be criticized.
In a general sense, I'm not understanding how the Pro Football Hall of Fame "recongnizing" other pro leagues somehow equates to players from lesser leagues being enshrined. So some non-NFL league came up with the brilliant idea of using overtime to break ties...does that mean all their good players should be in Canton? The USFL came up with the instant replay challenge system...so do we put Kelvin Bryant alongside Walter Payton?
#55 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 04 April 2014 - 09:10 AM
Mark L. Ford
"...outstanding black college players..."
As frightening as it might appear, the exclusion of black players WAS NOT limited to the NFL.
A good (actually, bad) example is the SEC.
That conference excluded blacks by charter and it was a long time until that "Rule" was relaxed.
(Read a little bit about "The Moving Van" for more detail.)
I don't recall the year and I am not going to look it up (Someone here will have that data right on the tips of her or his fingers.) but, when the SEC "changed" its rule, someone asked Bear Bryant for his thoughts.
His answer: "I don't care who they let into the school as long as he can run with a football."
PS "The Moving Van" was Steve.
#56 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 04 April 2014 - 10:50 AM
Bryan
"...What about Carl Lindemann..."
Long before Lindemann, there was Channel 5 in New York - the Dumont Television Network.
It was the "third fiddle" to CBS and NBC and Channel 7, ABC, was just gearing up.
Channel 11, WPIX, had the Yankees; Channel 9, WOR, had the Giants and no one really wanted the Dodgers. (Maybe Brooklyn did not have electricity yet?)
Anyway, Dumont gave a guy named Roone Arledge his first media job and the rest is history.
Arledge gave the WORLD "Monday Night Football" and that, more than anything, gave the NFL the push it needed. It was no longer just a "Sports Page" item.
It was social - if you did not watch, you were excluded from half the Tuesday morning conversations in America (US version and more.)
It was educational - Roone gave the planet Howard Cosell and Howard had the most profound impact on sports journalism that the world will ever see.
It was sexy - the women drooled over Frank Gifford and, secretly, wanted to sneak away with Dandy Don.
It was violence - people hoped Alex Karras would knock the snot out of the neighborhood bully.
And, it was profitable - ABC could demand whatever they wanted per advertising minute and the NFL took notice.
#57 ronfitch
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Posted 04 April 2014 - 11:21 AM
oldecapecod 11, on 03 Apr 2014 - 4:30 PM, said:
ronfitch
"...clipped..."
No; I did not "clip" your post. I simply copied the only word pertinent to my comment.
(If you read it, you will see it says "was ignored for Canton" which references Karras as one of many others for various reasons who are not in the hall.)
Karras and Hornung were part of the same suspension issue and announced simultaneously (I think.)
I would not clip you. That's 15 yards and I am too old to try to make them up.
Sorry if you felt that.
Hee ... sorry 'bout that, Cod.
I tried to "like" your post about clipping but was informed that I have hit my quota of "like" for the day (which is apparently zero). Flag on me.
#58 ronfitch
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Posted 04 April 2014 - 11:34 AM
Bryan, on 04 Apr 2014 - 07:47 AM, said:
5) I wasn't serious. Roosevelt was a convenient Mt Rushmore choice, because he is already on Mt Rushmore.
Bryan, on 04 Apr 2014 - 07:47 AM, said:
Took the kid to Mt. Rushmore last summer, which despite the drive (from anywhere, I am guessing, unless you already live in the Dakotas) was much cooler than I would have imagined. Great state parks, great camping, Rushmore itself is an amazing feat of engineering and the exhibits/movies/etc. are great if you are into history (you know, like us).
One thing that stuck out to me from materials there was the implication that Roosevelt's inclusion in the carving was heavily influenced by the sculptor's Borglum's personal relationship with Teddy. Not sure who - if anybody - I would replace Roosevelt with, but that stuck in my mind. And that the Jefferson carving was actually started on the right side of Washington and they had to scrap it because the rock turned out to not work out. And, of course, just how incredibly cool that thing is in person.
#59 byron
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Posted 04 April 2014 - 04:10 PM
Teddy Roosevelt is ridiculous. Perhaps his threats saved football, but over the years, so did Stagg and Camp. They were the ones tweaking the rules and regs until they finally got it right. They stopped mass and momentum plays in the later 1890s after the first broo ha ha over violence and severe injuries and deaths. It was these men, in a purportedly amateur sport who kept changing the rules that made football more palatable and popular.
Roosevelt simply mirrored the public outcry of the time. That he held the highest office had impact but was not a deciding factor IMHO. Owners and coaches were not continually "tweaking the rules" of the game unless they had a reason to do so (much like today). Mass and Momentum plays were made illegal in 1906 (ironically the roll block into the back of the DL player's legs began to be used around this time as well). This was all done in response to the public outcry against "too many deaths" in the league each season. This issue was a serious black-eye to a fairly young league trying to mark its place in American sports. They made the necessary changes to make the game safer because if they didn't they faced a very real threat to the game's continued existence. Fortunately, their ideas were generally good one and propelled the game forward instead of sinking it.
As for Teddy on Mt. Rushmore? In my opinion he belongs there. Great man, great President.
#60 luckyshow
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Posted 04 April 2014 - 05:16 PM
In the mid 1890s there was a well known injury, maybe death in a big annual game in Springfield, Mass., between Harvard and Yale. After this (what were later called) Ivy League schools stopped playing in large pribate stadiums as they had been doing, pulling back to campus fields for the most part. For almost 3 decades. And I think some of the dangerous parts of the game began to be changed. Maybe the Flying Wedge was banned?
One can not an approximately 5 to 10 year lull in football, a pullback of sorts. Has anyone ever done a year by year compilation of either the football related fatalities; or rule changes?
Most of the rule changes over time were for the betterment of the game. At least if the basic game of today is considered pretty good (except they are always bitching about the XP. In c.1920, they were determined to make it easier, almost automatic. I think they succeeded at that.
I think the extra point change around that time was a bad rule change. Centering the ball, especially.
But 4 downs to make 10 yards, seems pretty good. Canada does it the "old fashioned" way and not sure if it's better, 3 downs to make 5. They also kept the longer field, but added an enormous end zone, and the rouge. I don't think the Single was ever a part of American football. Nor after the first decade or so, were there 12 a side....
Anyway, my comment on Teddy was mostly about how it would just be incidental if his helping change or save the game, helped the NFL 15 years later. Thus I referenced Camp and Stagg, et al, and how their rule changes did similar/ Where would pro football be without the forward pass? Or the smaller field? For instance.
Yes, T. Roosevelt deserves to be on Mt. Rushmore. He also innovated some police procedures while Commish in New York. I just fault him on his Bully Great White Fleet, the imperialistic impulses and such. He loved war, the idea of war, the glamor and honor of war,, etc., until his son died in war.
Imagine a lesser Mt. Rushmore with Polk, Fillmore, Harrison and Buchanan (Have I chosen well the worst four,?)
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