Best Allie Sherman Giants squad: Carried over
Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:00 am
Conversation carried over from yesterday, October 11,
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Best Allie Sherman Giants squad
Started by 74_75_78_79_, Sep 02 2014 11:09 AM
Poll: '61-thru-'63
What Allie Sherman Giants squad is best?
'61: 10-3-1, blown-out 0-37 at GB
'62: 12-2, closer loss at home to Pack, 7-16
'63: 11-3, give Bears game at Chi-town, 10-14
Posted 02 September 2014 - 11:09 AM
I'm sure '61 won't get any votes but thought I add it in anyway. One question to
add to this poll to those in the know...looking at his W/L outputs in the years
immediately following his three-straight NFLCG-appearances, what was it that
kept him on as HC into the end of the decade? Ownership patience like Dallas
'60-'65, perhaps?
#2 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad: post #2
BD Sullivan
Posted 02 September 2014 - 12:48 PM
The Dallas analogy is amazingly accurate: after the team collapsed in 1964, Mara
gave Sherman a 10-year contract. Plus, Mara, being an "old school" owner, knew
the team was rebuilding, and said that he had okayed each of the personnel
decisions that saw them bottom out in '66. They got Tarkenton the next year.
However, after the Giants lost their first five exhibition games in '69 (one of
them a 37-14 stomping by the crosstown Jets)--after having dropped their final
four games in '68, Mara cut the cord.
In '69, the Giants won three of their first four, along with their last three.
Unfortunately, they lost seven in a row in between. They might have reached the
playoffs the next year, but started out 0-3, including losses to the Bears
(coming off a 1-13 season) at home, and the sad-sack Saints.
#3 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #3 Jagade PFRA Member
Posted 02 September 2014 - 04:49 PM
I would go for the 1962 Giants team. They were very tough. They had the home
field in the title game but played a very tough Green Bay team.
The 1963 team was also very tough, but there may have been signs of what was to
come. Rosie Grier and center Wietecha were gone and age was creeping up in
spots. Robustelli was 38, and others like Jack Stroud, Webster, Gifford, Scott,
etc. were getting up there. Tittle was sensational in 1963, but was 37.
Morrison did a good job taking Alex Webster's place when Webster was hurt.
#4 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #4 coach tj troup PFRA Member
Posted 03 September 2014 - 10:23 AM
....though they played green bay very tough at home in dec. of '62....the
following: '61 nyg allowed the fewest points(only 6 rushing tis allowed), 4th in
yards allowed, and first in defensive passer rating. '62 4th in points allowed,
and 6th in yards allowed, while finishing 5th in defensive passer rating. '63
the 280 points allowed was 5th, and 3rd in yards allowed, also 3rd in defensive
passer rating. even though they are "veteran"(aging?)....the window is closing
in '63 and defensively they know it, while the record setting passing attack was
superb....my vote goes to '63 nyg.
#5 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #5 SixtiesFan
Posted 03 September 2014 - 12:40 PM
I agree. The 1963 season was the high water mark (in more ways than one) for the
New York Giants of the era 1956-63. They had a lot to do with the increase in
pro football's popularity during the period.
#6 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #6 Jagade PFRA Member
Posted 05 September 2014 - 09:22 PM
You guys (Coach Troup and Sixties Fan) could be right. The 1963 Giants did seem
more overpowering than the 61 and 62 teams. I forgot about the 31 to 0 loss to
Pittsburgh when Tittle was kept out of the game due to getting beat up in the
opener. Keeping Y. A. out of the game with the Steelers may have been the
wisest move made by Allie Sherman all year. Tittle went on to have his best
year. Who knows what would have happened had he played and took a further
beating from that rough Pittsburgh team.
Maybe one of the unwisest decisions was to trade Ralph Guglielmi to Philadelphia
after the game. Ralph may have had a bad day against the Steelers, but the
trade left the Giants without a veteran backup QB.
It seems like most of the Giants had great years in 1963. About the only Giant
that didn't was Alex Webster, due to injury, but Morrision did very well at
fullback that year, as mentioned above.
#7 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #7 BD Sullivan
Posted 06 September 2014 - 10:25 AM
Actually, he had been traded to the 49ers, but refused to report because he had
an insurance business in D.C., and didn't want to leave the East Coast. The
Giants put him on their reserve list for about a month before the Eagles put in
a waiver claim for him. Philly only had King Hill behind center after Jurgensen
was hurt. Had Philly passed on him, Green Bay would have picked him up, since
Starr was out for another month.
Interestingly, Guglielmi only needed one more game to qualify for his NFL
pension when the original trade was made. The move to the reserve list was
undoubtedly some payback on the part of the Giants.
#8 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #8 Jagade
Posted 07 September 2014 - 12:29 AM
Interesting , but something I don't understand. I didn't know that someone
could play if they were on the reserve list, but Guglielmi played against
Pittsburgh just before going to Philadelphia.
I am sure that you are right, but I thought that someone on the reserve list
could not play until activated. Maybe Ralph was activated for the Pittsburgh
game and put back on the reserve list after the game.
Sam Huff said (in his book) that some of the Giants didn't like the fact that
Ralph Guglielmi was traded after the Steelers game. Apparently, his performance
against Pittsbugh had nothing to do with him going to the Eagles.
#9 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #9 Jagade
Posted 08 September 2014 - 04:49 PM
I would go for the 1962 Giants team. They were very tough. They had the home
field in the title game but played a very tough Green Bay team.
The 1963 team was also very tough, but there may have been signs of what was to
come. Rosie Grier and center Wietecha were gone and age was creeping up in
spots. Robustelli was 38, and others like Jack Stroud, Webster, Gifford, Scott,
etc. were getting up there. Tittle was sensational in 1963, but was 37.
Morrison did a good job taking Alex Webster's place when Webster was hurt.
Talking about signs of things to come, a source said that the 1963 Giants
quarterbacks had 35 sacks compared to 17 sacks in 1962. There was a couple of
changes on their OL. Greg Larson was moved to center to take the place of the
retired Ray Wietecha and 2nd year man Bookie Bolin took over for Larson at right
guard. Jack Stroud stayed at right tackle in 1963 where he was moved from his
right guard position in 1962.
In 1963, Stroud was not named 2nd team all-pro for the first time since 1958
when he missed a good part of the season. 2nd team may not sound like that much
to some people, but there were tackles like Forrest Greg, Mike McCormack, and
Rosie Brown from his own team around when he played tackle and guys like Jim Ray
Smith, Jerry Kramer, Gene Hickerson, Jim Parker, Stan Jones, Dick Stanfel,
Harley Sewell, and Fuzzy Thurston when Stroud played guard. 2nd team all-pro is
pretty good with those guys around. Don't know if there was any drop off in
Stroud's performance in 1963.
BTW, Jack Stroud would probably be a pretty good candidate for our Hall of Very
Good.
Another thing, the Giants played a little tougher schedule in 1962 playing the
Detroit team that gave Green Bay so much trouble that year, and winning, and
also beating the improving 9 and 5 Chicago Bears in 1962. In 1963, the Giants
played the 8 and 6 Baltimore Colts and the last place 49ers in the NFL's Western
Conference.
I really can't say for sure which Giants team was better, 1962 or 1963. I think
that they were both pretty good.
#10 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad: post #10 Jagade
Posted 12 September 2014 - 01:58 AM
So, what happened to the Giants in 1964? Going from 11 and 3 and 3 straight
championship games to 2-10-2 and last place is quite a drop. My opinion on this
can be just as wrong as anyone's, so I will give it a shot.
1.Trades of Sam Huff and Dick Modzelewski. Many believe that this was the main
reason for the collapse. Huff was replaced by rookie Slaby and Modzelewski by
veteran Stynchula, acquired in Huff trade. Those trades didn't help, but there
was more, I think.
2. Tackle Lovetere was acquired in the Grier trade in 1963, but had his knee
injured about halfway through the season. Lovetere, looked to do well at the
right defensive tackle position, but the knee injury pretty much ended his
career. This left the middle of the Giants D with 3 new players (Slaby,
Stynchula, and maybe Moran or Contoulis for Lovetere. Moran showed much
promise, but was a rookie and eventually had knee and leg injuries himself.
3. 1963 leading Giants rusher Phil King was released during preseason. The
Giants may have missed not only his running, but also his blocking. In the
opener against Philadelphia, Tittle was sacked 6 times, 5 times by blitzing
defensive back Don Burroughs. The Giants backs were usually responsible for
picking up blitzes, I think, so maybe it would have been King picking them up,
but I don't know. Anyway, it was the first time in many years that a blitzer
sacked a Giants QB 5 times, as far as I know. Philadelphia won 38 to 7. A
pretty good sign that the Giants were in trouble.
4. Don Stroud was 36 in 1964. Don't know if there was a drop off in his play,
but he was injured and missed almost half the year. Rookie Roger Anderson is
listed as the Giants starting right tackle for 1964 and 2nd year man Lane Howell
also got some playing time there. This probably didn't help things either.
5. Y A Tittle was 38 in 1964. Tittle took a big hit in the Giants 2nd game of
the season against Pittsburgh and I think had a concussion. Some say that
Tittle wasn't the same after that and some said that Y A took longer to get the
ball away on passes, resulting in more sacks.
6. Frank Gifford only caught 29 passes in 1964, which was way below the norm for
him (42 catches in 1963). I don't know if this was Gifford's fault, or that the
Giants' machine just wasn't that efficient, causing everyone's production to
suffer, or both.
7. After 3 great years, Del Shofner only caught 22 passes in 1964. Of course,
Del missed more than half the year due to injury. Joe Morrison led the Giants
with 40 catches in 1964..
8.. Off year for Alex Webster as well. Alex only averaged 2.8 yards per carry
which was way below his norm. Maybe the blocking wasn't as good, but don't
know.
I am sure that there were other things that I either can't think of right now or
just don't know about. Anyway, all good things come to an end, I guess, and
that includes the great Giants' dynasty of Gifford, Webster, Conerly, Tittle,
Shofner, Robustelli, Modzelewski, Katcavage, Grier, Huff, Scott, Brown, Stroud,
Wietecha, Chandler, Patton, Lynch, Barnes, Svoboda, etc. (boy, those Giants
really had some good players).
#11 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #11 Shipley
PFRA Member
Posted 12 September 2014 - 07:58 AM
Modzelewski got the best deal out of this mix...traded after the 1963 season
from a Giants team on the brink of collapse, he winds up with the Browns and
picks up a championship ring in 1964. He wound up giving the Browns three solid
seasons, then went on to have a distinguished coaching career.
#12 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #12 Jagade
Posted 12 September 2014 - 09:16 PM
Yes, Mo did all right. Gifford and Webster did well after their lousy year in
1964; Gifford as a broadcaster and Webster as a coach. Huff also became a
broadcaster in Washington. No doubt that he would have done as well if he
wasn't traded.
Both the 1962 and 1963 Giants were great, but I think that I would still give
the edge to the 1962 team. The 1963 team seemed more overpowering, winning more
games by big scores, but I think that the 1962 team was more solid.
After the 2nd game in 1963, the Giants did not have a veteran backup QB after
Guglielmi went to Philadelphia. If anything happened to Tittle, then the Giants
would have been screwed.
The Giants offensive line was better in 1962, IMO. In 1962, the right side
interior line for the Giants was C-Wietecha, RG-Larson, and RT-Stroud. In 1963
it was C-Larson, RG-Bolin, with Stroud still at RT. Larson did a good job at
center over the years, but I think that the 1962 OL was better as evidenced by
allowing only half as many sacks as the 1963 team.
#13 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad: post #13 Jagade
Posted 13 September 2014 - 11:47 PM
Here is another thing that I noticed. Looking more closely, I noticed that the
1963 Giants really feasted on the 4 worst teams in the NFL that year (San
Francisco, Philadelphia, Washington, and Dallas). The combined score of the 7
games with those teams was Giants 266, opponents 118. In 1963, the New York
Giants beat San Francisco 48 to 14, Philadelphia 37 to 14 and 42 to 14,
Washington 24 to 14 and 44 to 14, and Dallas 37 to 21 and 34 to 27. In 1963,
the 49ers record was 2 and 12, Eagles were 2-10-2, Washington was 3 and 11,
Dallas was 4 and 10 (Rumor had it that Tom Landry would be fired. He wasn't).
In the Giants other 7 games, the Giants were 4 wins and 3 losses, splitting wins
and losses against Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and St. Louis. Yes, Y. A. Tittle did
not play in their 31 to 0 loss to the Steelers, but I am not sure that even Y.
A. Tittle would have made up a 31 point difference in that game. In those 7
games, the total score was Giants 182 points, opponents 162 points. Kind of
puts a different light on things, IMO.
Don;t get me wrong. The 1963 Giants were a wonderful team. However, stats
don't always mean everything. The 1962 Giants did play a tougher schedule, and
did not beat up on the weaker teams as much as the 1963 team did.
#14 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad: post #14 Jagade
Posted 18 September 2014 - 07:25 PM
I guess that it's hard to see signs of a team in decline when a team keeps on
winning as the New York Giants did in 1963. The fact that the Giants
quarterbacks (mostly Tittle) were sacked twice as many times in 1963 than in
1962 probably went unnoticed. Also, the Giants looked overpowering at times,
albeit mostly against weaker teams, and that made it look like the Giants
dynasty would keep on rolling along.
I was in the Navy in 1963, and a friend of mine was a huge Giants fan. When I
would talk with him, the name of Y. A. Tittle would somehow creep into the
conversation. My friend said that the Giants would keep winning because they
had the best, and smartest organization (best front office, best coaching, etc.)
that always found a way to get the best players, make the smartest trades, etc.
I was transferred out in early 1964. During the 1964 season and in the
following years, I sometimes wondered what my friend thought of the Giants
organization then.
I know that people don't like to think of athletes as getting old and not being
able to do the job anymore, but no matter how experienced, there will come a
time when an athlete is not as good as in his prime if he plays long enough, and
especially in pro football when injuries also take a toll. The Giants were kind
of fortunate in 1963 as far as injuries are concerned. About the only Giant
that missed much time was Alex Webster, and Morrison filled in very well with
the Giants hardly missing a beat. Not so in 1964.
The trades of Huff and Modzelewski did hurt, but there were other things as
well. I think that the Giants still would have fallen in 1964 without those
trades, but probably not as hard or as fast.
#15 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #15 Marble_Eye
Forum Visitors
Posted 18 September 2014 - 09:28 PM
I will choose the 1963 Giants team for one simple reason. They were the closest
of Allie Sherman's teams to winning the Championship. With the Giants up 10-7
late a wide open Bob Schnelker* (EDIT: The end that dropped the TD pass was
actually Del Shofner. Thanx to SixtiesFan for the correction) drops a sure fire
TD pass in the End Zone.... (Granted, it was a cold day, in his defense.) If he
holds that ball, Giants go up 17-7 and with a Chicago offense that basically had
done almost nothing all day, that lead would have probably stood up. Allie and
the Maras would have had another Title and God only knows how long a contract
Sherman would've gotten then.
I always felt that Sherman won with "Jim Lee Howell's players" (I know all about
the theory that Jim didn't do much beyond give Vince Lombardi and Tom Landry
free rein re: coaching and I am not necessarily giving him credit or even his
HOF assistants with assembling that talent) and once the cupboard was bare...
well... put it this way... *IF* Sherman had a hand in selecting the "talent" of
the mid to late 60's he was no genius for the most part in the role of GM /
Scout / Personnel Director etc. (I don't recall off hand if he had any of those
titles (GM would be the only one likely) or responsibilities.)
Those of you who have watched game film or have more in depth knowledge than I
do are free to comment, contradict,. etc. I feel that Sherman was a good enough
coach when he had the horses, and that is something not all coaches can say. I
know it takes the Jimmies and Joes AND the X's and O's. Someone in that
organization sure let that team get old all of a sudden, that much is for sure.
#16 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #16 SixtiesFan
Posted 19 September 2014 - 12:12 AM
Schnelker no longer played for the Giants in 1963. It was Del Shofner who
dropped a TD pass in the first quarter with the Giants up 7-0. If the Giants had
gone up 14-0 at the time, I believe they would have won by about that margin,
maybe more.
Y.A. Tittle hurt his knee a few plays later, might not have happened if Shofner
had hung on to the TD pass.
I saw the game on TV.
#17 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #17 Marble_Eye
Posted 19 September 2014 - 01:03 AM
I stand corrected re: Schnelker. I didn't see the game but I did see highlights
and an overview of the game years later. I had the name wrong but at least I had
the gist of the story right. According to Wiki, the drop came in the 3rd
quarter with the score 10-7 NY and was quickly followed by the Ed O'Bradovich
INT of a screen pass and his rumbling return to put the ball deep in Giant
territory. This set up Bill Wade's 2nd short TD plunge to win it, although there
was a quarter to play. There was no further scoring that day. Game time temp
was 4 degrees F and wind chill was -11 degrees F.
Tittle had a brutal day with 5 INT, two of which were returned to set up Wade's
short TD runs. Of course, one could also credit Chicago's fine defense. Again,
per Wiki, Chicago's offensive game plan was conservative to the extreme. It
looks like they may well have been shut out that day without the table setting
INT returns of Larry Morris and Ed O'Bradovich. NY had the edge in total
offense.
#18 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #18 Jagade
Posted 20 September 2014 - 12:02 AM
I forgot about Alan Webb, starting left safety who missed half the 1963 season.
Dick Pesonen and Eddie Dove filled in for Webb and apparently did well that
year.
The Giants were a little bit like George Allen's teams in that they built their
dynasty much through trades. Some of their best players like Andy Robustelli,
Dick Modzelewski, Erich Barnes, Tom Scott, Alex Webster, Linden Crow, Bill
Svoboda, Dick Lynch, Del Shofner, Darrel Dess, Pat Summerall, Joe Walton and Y.
A. Tittle all came through trades. Webster actually came from Canada, but
Washington had his rights, so the Giants had to give them compensation (probably
a draft choice). Trouble is, what was always predicted to happen to Allen's
teams did happen to the Giants in 1964.
As far as age in 1963. 10 of their starters were on the wrong side of 30 that
year. There was Tittle (37), Webster (32), Gifford (33), Rosey Brown (31),
Stroud (35), Modzelewski (32), Robustelli (38), Scott (33), Webb (30), and
Patton (30). This didn't seem to bother the Giants in 1963 as the Giants played
very well and their key players stayed healthy for the most part. Backup
quarterback Ralph Guglielmi was 30 in 1963, but was gone after a couple of
games.
Another player, Mickey Walker, was a demon on the special teams, but was injured
much of 1964 and 1965 and then retired. Tight end Joe Walton also retired after
the 1963 season (maybe a big part of the reason for the Modzelewski trade to
Cleveland for tight end Bob Crespino). So, Walton was gone in 1964 along with
Huff, Modzelewski, and Phil King (4 starters in 1963).
Robustelli was supposed to retire after 1963, but came back for one more season.
Defensive end Andy Stynchula, acquired in the Huff trade, was going to take
Robustelli's place, but instead played left defensive tackle instead of
Modzelewski in 1964. The Giants also got halfback Dick James in the Huff trade.
James had some good days against the Giants in previous years, so Sherman must
have coveted James.
Chuck Janerette was a reserve defensive tackle for the Giants in 1961 and 1962,
but left the Giants for the AFL in 1963. Janerette was good enough to be a
starter for 2 teams in the AFL (Jets and Broncos) in 1963, 1964, and 1965. The
Giants probably could have used him in 1964.
Allie Sherman apparently tried to head off the perceived problem of too many
good players to retire at about the same time by trading LB Cliff Livingston
(then 31) after the1961 season and Rosey Grier (then 31) after the 1962 season,
and Dick Modzelewski (then 32) after the 1963 season. Grier also had some
trouble keeping his weight down, which may have also been the reason for the
trade. The Huff trade may have been due to a personality clash with Sherman
because Sam was only 29 in 1963.
Anyway, sometimes stuff happens, and in 1964, it looks like a lot of stuff
happened to the New York Giants.
#19 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #19 Jagade
Posted 24 September 2014 - 12:55 AM
Here is something that some might find interesting. The 1967 Green Bay Packers
and the 1963 New York Giants both had the last big years of their championship
runs. The Pack won the Super Bowl in 1967, but then fell to a 6 and 8 record
the following year. The Giants played in their 6th NFL Championship game in 8
years in 1963, but then fell to last place in 1964. There are some similarities
with the 2 teams. One is that they both had 10 starters over 30 in that, their
last year playing in a championship game of that era. Here are the players with
their ages.
1967 Green Bay Packers:
1. Forrest Gregg RT 34
2.. Bart Starr QB 33
3. Willie Davis LDE 33
4. Bob Skoronski LT 33
5. Henry Jordan RDT 32
6. Jerry Kramer RG 31
7. Ray Nitschke MLB 31
8. Willie Wood RS 31
9. Bob Jeter RCB 30
10. Boyd Dowler WR 30
1963 New York Giants
1. Andy Robustelli LDE 38
2. Y. A. Tittle QB 37
3. Jack Stroud RT 35
4. Frank Gifford FL 33
5. Tom Scott LLB 33
6. Alex Webster FB 32
7. Dick Modzelewski RDT 32
8. Rosey Brown LT 31
9. Jim Patton RS 30
10. Allan Webb LS 30
If you wonder about Fuzzy Thurston, he was 34 in 1967, but Gale Gillingham is
listed as the starting left guard that year. Hugh McElhenny was 35 for the
Giants in 1963, but was a reserve and played for Detroit the following year.
Don Chandler played for both the 1963 Giants and the 1967 Packers. Chandler was
traded to Green Bay after the 1964 season; a good trade for him.
Not saying here that age is the reason that these teams fell or even that age
was the main reason. There were other things like trades that did not work out,
injuries, Vince leaving, etc. There is no way to know the exact reason for
these things happening.
#20 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #20 BD Sullivan
Posted 24 September 2014 - 01:51 PM
It's been pointed out before that Lombardi's draft acumen paled in comparison to
the guy who brought in the bulk of that Packer talent, Jack Vainisi. Obviously,
Allie Sherman's was even worse.
#21 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
Jagade PFRA Member
So, Lombardi was a great coach, but maybe not so great at building a team.
Vince did inherit a lot of talent at Green Bay.
I guess the metaphor for Allie Sherman was that he could drive a car, but could
not build one. Probably could use that one for many coaches.
#22 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #22 Jagade
Posted 28 September 2014 - 06:59 PM
Alex Webster admitted that he was over the hill in 1964, when he averaged only
2.8 yards per carry, which was way below his best. I think that in truth, he
was past it in 1963 as well. In 1963, Alex averaged 3.4 YPC and only played in
7 games due to injuries.
Alex missed much of the 1960 season, but came back in 1961 and really had a
great year. Webster averaged 4.7 YPC in 1961 gaining over 900 yards and also
caught 26 passes for more than 300 more. If not for people like Jim Brown and
Jim Taylor, then Alex may have been named to some All-Pro teams that year.
Another good year in 1962 with Webster averaging 3.6 YPC for over 700 yards and
catching 47 passes 477 yards.
Not so good in 1963 gaining 255 yards in 7 games and catching 15 passes for 128
yards. As mentioned before, Joe Morrison took up the slack for Alex averaging
4.8 yards per carry and was 2nd leading rusher for the Giants behind Phil King.
In 1964, a rival defensive lineman noted that Alex Webster can't hit the hole
anymore. Maybe in 1963 as well, but injuries probably played a part in that.
BTW, it might not seem to read like that here, but Alex Webster was one of my
favorite Giants, starting in 1955. Alex might be another good candidate for the
HOVG. I always thought that he was pretty good.
#23 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #23 Jagade
Posted 30 September 2014 - 12:33 AM
Here is something I just recently found out. The four contenders in the NFL
Eastern Conference in 1963 were the New York Giants, Cleveland Browns, St. Louis
Cardinals, and Pittsburgh Steelers. All teams in the Eastern Conference played
each other twice and each played two teams from the Western Conference.
The Giants, Browns, Cards, and Steelers each split wins against each other. In
other words, those four teams had a total of 3 wins and 3 losses in their games
against the other 3 contenders in the east. The Giants won the conference
title with a record of 11 wins and 3 losses in 1963, and played the Chicago
Bears in the NFL Championship game. Cleveland finished 10 and 4, Pittsburgh
7-4-3, and the Cards 9 and 5.
The thing that really won their conference for the Giants is that they beat both
of their western opponents, Baltimore (8 wins and 6 losses) and San Francisco (2
wins and 12 losses). The other 3 contenders all lost at least 1 game to Western
Conference teams. Cleveland lost to their old nemesis, Detroit, while St. Louis
and Pittsburgh both lost to Green Bay. Pittsburgh also played eventual champion
Chicago and managed to get a tie with the Bears.
Ties did not count for anything in 1963, so Pittsburgh still had a chance to win
the conference title with a win over the Giants in their season final game. The
Giants won that game 33 to 14 to move on to the championship game. St. Louis
went into their final game with a 9 and 4 record and played a weak Dallas team
(3 wins and 10 losses) at home, but the game was meaningless because the
conference title was to be decided by the winner of the Giants/Steelers game. A
win would do St. Louis no good, so the Cards lost to the lowly Cowboys, 28 to
24. I don't think that it is a stretch to say that St. Louis could and probably
would have won their game with Dallas if they had some incentive to win. A win
against Dallas in that game would have had the Cards finish the season with a 10
and 4 record.
Pittsburgh finished the 1963 season with a 7-4-3 record. Three of the Steelers
losses were to the other 3 contenders in the east, and the other loss was to
Green Bay. The Steelers got a tie with champion Chicago and strangely enough,
had 2 ties with a not very good Eagles team (2-10-2).
So, apparently what won the Eastern Conference title for the New York Giants was
the schedule, or the western opponents that they had to play. Suppose that we
switch things around and the Giants played Green Bay and Chicago that year and
Pittsburgh and St. Louis played Baltimore and last placed (2-12) San Francisco
in 1963. Would the Giants have still finished in first place? I have my doubts
that they would have.
Just something to think about.
#24 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #24 SixtiesFan
Posted 30 September 2014 - 01:13 AM
I followed that race closely. A game I especially recall watching on TV is the
Giant win over the Steelers in the last game. It had a big buildup at the time
with the Yankee Stadium crowd really up for it.
#25 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad: post #25
74_75_78_79_
Forum Visitors
Posted 01 October 2014 - 04:08 PM
Such a WEALTH of info from these 20 posts following what I, a glorified
sub-amateur NFL football connoisseur, started. Thank you ALL. After hearing both
expert sides of either '62 or '63, I'm still mostly torn. Had NYG beat Chicago
in '63 would that still have been considered by some to be...'tainted' due to
Hornung not being around in GB? A title is a title is a title and I know not all
experts feel this way but there are some who feel Chicago's title that year was
won due to it; and then you got the whole Gillman's Chargers debate to boot! Did
Sherman 'inherit' Howell's Giants enabling he to bring them to three straight
NFLCG-berths, or should the 'gap' between Allie and Jim Lee 'close' due to Allie
never having either Lombardi nor Landry at his disposal? With all the personnel
losses NYG suffered by the mid-'60s, would even all three coaches (Howell,
Lombardi, Landry) have been able to avert sub-500 ball? You put a gun to my
head, with all super-respect to those who say '63 Giants were better (Troup
included), I think I would still have to lean with '62 from what I'm able to
gather. Green Bay seemed at their peak in '62 (especially their ridiculous
run-attack and point-differential), they were 13-1, yet the G-men (yes, it was
at Yankees Stadium) played them quite respectably, losing by just 9. Maybe the
Bears would have still ultimately prevailed even with Hornung around in '63 (and
would have bettered SD too), but can't help but to instinctively be more
impressed with '62.
ps - you'd think the scheduling back then would have involved 1st place and last
place teams from the year before playing each other along with 2nd and 6th
placers playing one another all the way down to the 4th placers playing twice
(or last placers playing twice such the case with the conference set-up
'78-thru-'94). Would have made sense to have GB/NYG play one another in both '62
& '63 (NYG/Chi in '64, GB/Philly in '61, etc).
#26 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #26 Jagade
PFRA Member
Posted 04 October 2014 - 08:11 PM
Already mentioned here are injuries in 1964 to Giants Shofner, Tittle,
LoVetere, Webster, Stroud, etc., but the Giants did lose 3 of their first 4
games to start the 1964 season before most of these injuries. The trades of
Huff and Modzelewski also were considered a big part of the Giants' problems
that year, but the teams' troubles were not only on defense, as evidenced by the
6 sacks in the 38 to 7 loss to a very mediocre Philadelphia team in the opener.
I noticed watching the 1963 Giants that Y. A. Tittle often just barely got off
passes before a pass rusher was to get to him. Often, those passes went for big
gains, especially ones to Shofner, who had another tremendous season. Still,
maybe signs of decline. I mentioned Webster being a little past it in 1963.
Maybe Robustelli and Modzelewski as well.
Robustelli made some big plays, but mostly against teams like the Eagles and
Washington in routs. Andy was 38 that year, and I think that he was held in
check for the most part by tackles like Cleveland's Schafrath, and Pittsburgh's
Charlie Bradshaw (I noticed that Andy got a sack on Frank Ryan on one play, but
I don't think that anyone blocked him. Schafrath apparently blocked the DT on
that play, so there was probably a screw up of some kind by the Browns).
Anyway, I doubt that Andy was quite the force that he was in previous years, but
what the heck; how many players can even play, or play at that level at 38?
Modzelewski was traded to Cleveland in 1964, and Art Modell and some others
heaped much praise on him, but don't forget; by making Dick Modzelewski look
good, Art was also making himself look good for making the trade for Dick.
Modzelewski was popular with other players on the team and was said to inject a
winning spirit to the 1964 Browns, and there could be truth to that, but was he
physically the same player as he was in say,1959? Maybe. Maybe not.
Things just seemed to fall into place for the Giants in 1963. Dick Lynch seemed
to intercept anything that came near him that year. I believe that he was just
as good in 1962, but maybe just did not get as many opportunities for intercepts
as he did the following year. The fact that the passing game was sensational in
1963 (as in 1962) and many well timed interceptions probably covered up flaws in
the team that became more apparent and worse in 1964.
Also mentioned before is that the Giants had an easier schedule than their main
rivals in the east in 1963, with both Pittsburgh and St. Louis having to play
and losing to Green Bay. The fact that the Giants did not have hardly any major
injuries to key players also was a big break.
And so, though mostly unnoticed, the 1963 New York Giants were probably a team
in decline, despite winning another conference championship.
#27 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #27 Jagade
Posted 08 October 2014 - 12:04 AM
The Giants defensive right cornerback, Dick Lynch, is another of those early
1960's Giants players that I think would be a real good candidate for the HOVG.
From 1961 through 1963, he just seemed to be everywhere.
Lynch would join already mentioned Alex Webster and Jack Stroud as players who I
believe should eventually join those that have already been voted in.
I will throw in Joe Morrison as a good candidate. Morrison was a valuable
player for those Y.A. Tittle Giants teams as well as their later (Fran
Tarkenton) teams. Joe played about half a dozen different positions for the
1960's Giants, and played them very well.
Jim Katcavage is another one who I think belongs. I am a little surprised that
he hasn't been voted in already.
#28 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #28 SixtiesFan
Forum Visitors
I recall Dick Lynch returning three inteceptions for TD's in 1963. He would time
a sideline pass just right, pick it off and sprint to the end zone.
#29 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #29 Jagade
Posted 10 October 2014, 12:47 AM
Guard Darrell Dess was another good one for the Y.A. Tittle era Giants teams.
One thing that seems strange to me about Dess is that he was named to All-Pro
teams (mostly 2nd team) only in 1963. I wonder why that is? In all his years
with the Giants, was he that much better in 1963 than in any of his other years?
The only thing that I can figure is that 1963 was the first time in 5 years that
Jack Stroud was not named to any All-Pro teams (first or second team), so the
sportswriters voted in another Giant offensive lineman (Dess) to make up for it.
Either that or Darrell did some spectacular things in 1963 that he didn't do in
other years.
Anyone know anything about this?
-----
---------
Best Allie Sherman Giants squad
Started by 74_75_78_79_, Sep 02 2014 11:09 AM
Poll: '61-thru-'63
What Allie Sherman Giants squad is best?
'61: 10-3-1, blown-out 0-37 at GB
'62: 12-2, closer loss at home to Pack, 7-16
'63: 11-3, give Bears game at Chi-town, 10-14
Posted 02 September 2014 - 11:09 AM
I'm sure '61 won't get any votes but thought I add it in anyway. One question to
add to this poll to those in the know...looking at his W/L outputs in the years
immediately following his three-straight NFLCG-appearances, what was it that
kept him on as HC into the end of the decade? Ownership patience like Dallas
'60-'65, perhaps?
#2 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad: post #2
BD Sullivan
Posted 02 September 2014 - 12:48 PM
The Dallas analogy is amazingly accurate: after the team collapsed in 1964, Mara
gave Sherman a 10-year contract. Plus, Mara, being an "old school" owner, knew
the team was rebuilding, and said that he had okayed each of the personnel
decisions that saw them bottom out in '66. They got Tarkenton the next year.
However, after the Giants lost their first five exhibition games in '69 (one of
them a 37-14 stomping by the crosstown Jets)--after having dropped their final
four games in '68, Mara cut the cord.
In '69, the Giants won three of their first four, along with their last three.
Unfortunately, they lost seven in a row in between. They might have reached the
playoffs the next year, but started out 0-3, including losses to the Bears
(coming off a 1-13 season) at home, and the sad-sack Saints.
#3 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #3 Jagade PFRA Member
Posted 02 September 2014 - 04:49 PM
I would go for the 1962 Giants team. They were very tough. They had the home
field in the title game but played a very tough Green Bay team.
The 1963 team was also very tough, but there may have been signs of what was to
come. Rosie Grier and center Wietecha were gone and age was creeping up in
spots. Robustelli was 38, and others like Jack Stroud, Webster, Gifford, Scott,
etc. were getting up there. Tittle was sensational in 1963, but was 37.
Morrison did a good job taking Alex Webster's place when Webster was hurt.
#4 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #4 coach tj troup PFRA Member
Posted 03 September 2014 - 10:23 AM
....though they played green bay very tough at home in dec. of '62....the
following: '61 nyg allowed the fewest points(only 6 rushing tis allowed), 4th in
yards allowed, and first in defensive passer rating. '62 4th in points allowed,
and 6th in yards allowed, while finishing 5th in defensive passer rating. '63
the 280 points allowed was 5th, and 3rd in yards allowed, also 3rd in defensive
passer rating. even though they are "veteran"(aging?)....the window is closing
in '63 and defensively they know it, while the record setting passing attack was
superb....my vote goes to '63 nyg.
#5 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #5 SixtiesFan
Posted 03 September 2014 - 12:40 PM
I agree. The 1963 season was the high water mark (in more ways than one) for the
New York Giants of the era 1956-63. They had a lot to do with the increase in
pro football's popularity during the period.
#6 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #6 Jagade PFRA Member
Posted 05 September 2014 - 09:22 PM
You guys (Coach Troup and Sixties Fan) could be right. The 1963 Giants did seem
more overpowering than the 61 and 62 teams. I forgot about the 31 to 0 loss to
Pittsburgh when Tittle was kept out of the game due to getting beat up in the
opener. Keeping Y. A. out of the game with the Steelers may have been the
wisest move made by Allie Sherman all year. Tittle went on to have his best
year. Who knows what would have happened had he played and took a further
beating from that rough Pittsburgh team.
Maybe one of the unwisest decisions was to trade Ralph Guglielmi to Philadelphia
after the game. Ralph may have had a bad day against the Steelers, but the
trade left the Giants without a veteran backup QB.
It seems like most of the Giants had great years in 1963. About the only Giant
that didn't was Alex Webster, due to injury, but Morrision did very well at
fullback that year, as mentioned above.
#7 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #7 BD Sullivan
Posted 06 September 2014 - 10:25 AM
Actually, he had been traded to the 49ers, but refused to report because he had
an insurance business in D.C., and didn't want to leave the East Coast. The
Giants put him on their reserve list for about a month before the Eagles put in
a waiver claim for him. Philly only had King Hill behind center after Jurgensen
was hurt. Had Philly passed on him, Green Bay would have picked him up, since
Starr was out for another month.
Interestingly, Guglielmi only needed one more game to qualify for his NFL
pension when the original trade was made. The move to the reserve list was
undoubtedly some payback on the part of the Giants.
#8 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #8 Jagade
Posted 07 September 2014 - 12:29 AM
Interesting , but something I don't understand. I didn't know that someone
could play if they were on the reserve list, but Guglielmi played against
Pittsburgh just before going to Philadelphia.
I am sure that you are right, but I thought that someone on the reserve list
could not play until activated. Maybe Ralph was activated for the Pittsburgh
game and put back on the reserve list after the game.
Sam Huff said (in his book) that some of the Giants didn't like the fact that
Ralph Guglielmi was traded after the Steelers game. Apparently, his performance
against Pittsbugh had nothing to do with him going to the Eagles.
#9 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #9 Jagade
Posted 08 September 2014 - 04:49 PM
I would go for the 1962 Giants team. They were very tough. They had the home
field in the title game but played a very tough Green Bay team.
The 1963 team was also very tough, but there may have been signs of what was to
come. Rosie Grier and center Wietecha were gone and age was creeping up in
spots. Robustelli was 38, and others like Jack Stroud, Webster, Gifford, Scott,
etc. were getting up there. Tittle was sensational in 1963, but was 37.
Morrison did a good job taking Alex Webster's place when Webster was hurt.
Talking about signs of things to come, a source said that the 1963 Giants
quarterbacks had 35 sacks compared to 17 sacks in 1962. There was a couple of
changes on their OL. Greg Larson was moved to center to take the place of the
retired Ray Wietecha and 2nd year man Bookie Bolin took over for Larson at right
guard. Jack Stroud stayed at right tackle in 1963 where he was moved from his
right guard position in 1962.
In 1963, Stroud was not named 2nd team all-pro for the first time since 1958
when he missed a good part of the season. 2nd team may not sound like that much
to some people, but there were tackles like Forrest Greg, Mike McCormack, and
Rosie Brown from his own team around when he played tackle and guys like Jim Ray
Smith, Jerry Kramer, Gene Hickerson, Jim Parker, Stan Jones, Dick Stanfel,
Harley Sewell, and Fuzzy Thurston when Stroud played guard. 2nd team all-pro is
pretty good with those guys around. Don't know if there was any drop off in
Stroud's performance in 1963.
BTW, Jack Stroud would probably be a pretty good candidate for our Hall of Very
Good.
Another thing, the Giants played a little tougher schedule in 1962 playing the
Detroit team that gave Green Bay so much trouble that year, and winning, and
also beating the improving 9 and 5 Chicago Bears in 1962. In 1963, the Giants
played the 8 and 6 Baltimore Colts and the last place 49ers in the NFL's Western
Conference.
I really can't say for sure which Giants team was better, 1962 or 1963. I think
that they were both pretty good.
#10 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad: post #10 Jagade
Posted 12 September 2014 - 01:58 AM
So, what happened to the Giants in 1964? Going from 11 and 3 and 3 straight
championship games to 2-10-2 and last place is quite a drop. My opinion on this
can be just as wrong as anyone's, so I will give it a shot.
1.Trades of Sam Huff and Dick Modzelewski. Many believe that this was the main
reason for the collapse. Huff was replaced by rookie Slaby and Modzelewski by
veteran Stynchula, acquired in Huff trade. Those trades didn't help, but there
was more, I think.
2. Tackle Lovetere was acquired in the Grier trade in 1963, but had his knee
injured about halfway through the season. Lovetere, looked to do well at the
right defensive tackle position, but the knee injury pretty much ended his
career. This left the middle of the Giants D with 3 new players (Slaby,
Stynchula, and maybe Moran or Contoulis for Lovetere. Moran showed much
promise, but was a rookie and eventually had knee and leg injuries himself.
3. 1963 leading Giants rusher Phil King was released during preseason. The
Giants may have missed not only his running, but also his blocking. In the
opener against Philadelphia, Tittle was sacked 6 times, 5 times by blitzing
defensive back Don Burroughs. The Giants backs were usually responsible for
picking up blitzes, I think, so maybe it would have been King picking them up,
but I don't know. Anyway, it was the first time in many years that a blitzer
sacked a Giants QB 5 times, as far as I know. Philadelphia won 38 to 7. A
pretty good sign that the Giants were in trouble.
4. Don Stroud was 36 in 1964. Don't know if there was a drop off in his play,
but he was injured and missed almost half the year. Rookie Roger Anderson is
listed as the Giants starting right tackle for 1964 and 2nd year man Lane Howell
also got some playing time there. This probably didn't help things either.
5. Y A Tittle was 38 in 1964. Tittle took a big hit in the Giants 2nd game of
the season against Pittsburgh and I think had a concussion. Some say that
Tittle wasn't the same after that and some said that Y A took longer to get the
ball away on passes, resulting in more sacks.
6. Frank Gifford only caught 29 passes in 1964, which was way below the norm for
him (42 catches in 1963). I don't know if this was Gifford's fault, or that the
Giants' machine just wasn't that efficient, causing everyone's production to
suffer, or both.
7. After 3 great years, Del Shofner only caught 22 passes in 1964. Of course,
Del missed more than half the year due to injury. Joe Morrison led the Giants
with 40 catches in 1964..
8.. Off year for Alex Webster as well. Alex only averaged 2.8 yards per carry
which was way below his norm. Maybe the blocking wasn't as good, but don't
know.
I am sure that there were other things that I either can't think of right now or
just don't know about. Anyway, all good things come to an end, I guess, and
that includes the great Giants' dynasty of Gifford, Webster, Conerly, Tittle,
Shofner, Robustelli, Modzelewski, Katcavage, Grier, Huff, Scott, Brown, Stroud,
Wietecha, Chandler, Patton, Lynch, Barnes, Svoboda, etc. (boy, those Giants
really had some good players).
#11 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #11 Shipley
PFRA Member
Posted 12 September 2014 - 07:58 AM
Modzelewski got the best deal out of this mix...traded after the 1963 season
from a Giants team on the brink of collapse, he winds up with the Browns and
picks up a championship ring in 1964. He wound up giving the Browns three solid
seasons, then went on to have a distinguished coaching career.
#12 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #12 Jagade
Posted 12 September 2014 - 09:16 PM
Yes, Mo did all right. Gifford and Webster did well after their lousy year in
1964; Gifford as a broadcaster and Webster as a coach. Huff also became a
broadcaster in Washington. No doubt that he would have done as well if he
wasn't traded.
Both the 1962 and 1963 Giants were great, but I think that I would still give
the edge to the 1962 team. The 1963 team seemed more overpowering, winning more
games by big scores, but I think that the 1962 team was more solid.
After the 2nd game in 1963, the Giants did not have a veteran backup QB after
Guglielmi went to Philadelphia. If anything happened to Tittle, then the Giants
would have been screwed.
The Giants offensive line was better in 1962, IMO. In 1962, the right side
interior line for the Giants was C-Wietecha, RG-Larson, and RT-Stroud. In 1963
it was C-Larson, RG-Bolin, with Stroud still at RT. Larson did a good job at
center over the years, but I think that the 1962 OL was better as evidenced by
allowing only half as many sacks as the 1963 team.
#13 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad: post #13 Jagade
Posted 13 September 2014 - 11:47 PM
Here is another thing that I noticed. Looking more closely, I noticed that the
1963 Giants really feasted on the 4 worst teams in the NFL that year (San
Francisco, Philadelphia, Washington, and Dallas). The combined score of the 7
games with those teams was Giants 266, opponents 118. In 1963, the New York
Giants beat San Francisco 48 to 14, Philadelphia 37 to 14 and 42 to 14,
Washington 24 to 14 and 44 to 14, and Dallas 37 to 21 and 34 to 27. In 1963,
the 49ers record was 2 and 12, Eagles were 2-10-2, Washington was 3 and 11,
Dallas was 4 and 10 (Rumor had it that Tom Landry would be fired. He wasn't).
In the Giants other 7 games, the Giants were 4 wins and 3 losses, splitting wins
and losses against Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and St. Louis. Yes, Y. A. Tittle did
not play in their 31 to 0 loss to the Steelers, but I am not sure that even Y.
A. Tittle would have made up a 31 point difference in that game. In those 7
games, the total score was Giants 182 points, opponents 162 points. Kind of
puts a different light on things, IMO.
Don;t get me wrong. The 1963 Giants were a wonderful team. However, stats
don't always mean everything. The 1962 Giants did play a tougher schedule, and
did not beat up on the weaker teams as much as the 1963 team did.
#14 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad: post #14 Jagade
Posted 18 September 2014 - 07:25 PM
I guess that it's hard to see signs of a team in decline when a team keeps on
winning as the New York Giants did in 1963. The fact that the Giants
quarterbacks (mostly Tittle) were sacked twice as many times in 1963 than in
1962 probably went unnoticed. Also, the Giants looked overpowering at times,
albeit mostly against weaker teams, and that made it look like the Giants
dynasty would keep on rolling along.
I was in the Navy in 1963, and a friend of mine was a huge Giants fan. When I
would talk with him, the name of Y. A. Tittle would somehow creep into the
conversation. My friend said that the Giants would keep winning because they
had the best, and smartest organization (best front office, best coaching, etc.)
that always found a way to get the best players, make the smartest trades, etc.
I was transferred out in early 1964. During the 1964 season and in the
following years, I sometimes wondered what my friend thought of the Giants
organization then.
I know that people don't like to think of athletes as getting old and not being
able to do the job anymore, but no matter how experienced, there will come a
time when an athlete is not as good as in his prime if he plays long enough, and
especially in pro football when injuries also take a toll. The Giants were kind
of fortunate in 1963 as far as injuries are concerned. About the only Giant
that missed much time was Alex Webster, and Morrison filled in very well with
the Giants hardly missing a beat. Not so in 1964.
The trades of Huff and Modzelewski did hurt, but there were other things as
well. I think that the Giants still would have fallen in 1964 without those
trades, but probably not as hard or as fast.
#15 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #15 Marble_Eye
Forum Visitors
Posted 18 September 2014 - 09:28 PM
I will choose the 1963 Giants team for one simple reason. They were the closest
of Allie Sherman's teams to winning the Championship. With the Giants up 10-7
late a wide open Bob Schnelker* (EDIT: The end that dropped the TD pass was
actually Del Shofner. Thanx to SixtiesFan for the correction) drops a sure fire
TD pass in the End Zone.... (Granted, it was a cold day, in his defense.) If he
holds that ball, Giants go up 17-7 and with a Chicago offense that basically had
done almost nothing all day, that lead would have probably stood up. Allie and
the Maras would have had another Title and God only knows how long a contract
Sherman would've gotten then.
I always felt that Sherman won with "Jim Lee Howell's players" (I know all about
the theory that Jim didn't do much beyond give Vince Lombardi and Tom Landry
free rein re: coaching and I am not necessarily giving him credit or even his
HOF assistants with assembling that talent) and once the cupboard was bare...
well... put it this way... *IF* Sherman had a hand in selecting the "talent" of
the mid to late 60's he was no genius for the most part in the role of GM /
Scout / Personnel Director etc. (I don't recall off hand if he had any of those
titles (GM would be the only one likely) or responsibilities.)
Those of you who have watched game film or have more in depth knowledge than I
do are free to comment, contradict,. etc. I feel that Sherman was a good enough
coach when he had the horses, and that is something not all coaches can say. I
know it takes the Jimmies and Joes AND the X's and O's. Someone in that
organization sure let that team get old all of a sudden, that much is for sure.
#16 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #16 SixtiesFan
Posted 19 September 2014 - 12:12 AM
Schnelker no longer played for the Giants in 1963. It was Del Shofner who
dropped a TD pass in the first quarter with the Giants up 7-0. If the Giants had
gone up 14-0 at the time, I believe they would have won by about that margin,
maybe more.
Y.A. Tittle hurt his knee a few plays later, might not have happened if Shofner
had hung on to the TD pass.
I saw the game on TV.
#17 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #17 Marble_Eye
Posted 19 September 2014 - 01:03 AM
I stand corrected re: Schnelker. I didn't see the game but I did see highlights
and an overview of the game years later. I had the name wrong but at least I had
the gist of the story right. According to Wiki, the drop came in the 3rd
quarter with the score 10-7 NY and was quickly followed by the Ed O'Bradovich
INT of a screen pass and his rumbling return to put the ball deep in Giant
territory. This set up Bill Wade's 2nd short TD plunge to win it, although there
was a quarter to play. There was no further scoring that day. Game time temp
was 4 degrees F and wind chill was -11 degrees F.
Tittle had a brutal day with 5 INT, two of which were returned to set up Wade's
short TD runs. Of course, one could also credit Chicago's fine defense. Again,
per Wiki, Chicago's offensive game plan was conservative to the extreme. It
looks like they may well have been shut out that day without the table setting
INT returns of Larry Morris and Ed O'Bradovich. NY had the edge in total
offense.
#18 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #18 Jagade
Posted 20 September 2014 - 12:02 AM
I forgot about Alan Webb, starting left safety who missed half the 1963 season.
Dick Pesonen and Eddie Dove filled in for Webb and apparently did well that
year.
The Giants were a little bit like George Allen's teams in that they built their
dynasty much through trades. Some of their best players like Andy Robustelli,
Dick Modzelewski, Erich Barnes, Tom Scott, Alex Webster, Linden Crow, Bill
Svoboda, Dick Lynch, Del Shofner, Darrel Dess, Pat Summerall, Joe Walton and Y.
A. Tittle all came through trades. Webster actually came from Canada, but
Washington had his rights, so the Giants had to give them compensation (probably
a draft choice). Trouble is, what was always predicted to happen to Allen's
teams did happen to the Giants in 1964.
As far as age in 1963. 10 of their starters were on the wrong side of 30 that
year. There was Tittle (37), Webster (32), Gifford (33), Rosey Brown (31),
Stroud (35), Modzelewski (32), Robustelli (38), Scott (33), Webb (30), and
Patton (30). This didn't seem to bother the Giants in 1963 as the Giants played
very well and their key players stayed healthy for the most part. Backup
quarterback Ralph Guglielmi was 30 in 1963, but was gone after a couple of
games.
Another player, Mickey Walker, was a demon on the special teams, but was injured
much of 1964 and 1965 and then retired. Tight end Joe Walton also retired after
the 1963 season (maybe a big part of the reason for the Modzelewski trade to
Cleveland for tight end Bob Crespino). So, Walton was gone in 1964 along with
Huff, Modzelewski, and Phil King (4 starters in 1963).
Robustelli was supposed to retire after 1963, but came back for one more season.
Defensive end Andy Stynchula, acquired in the Huff trade, was going to take
Robustelli's place, but instead played left defensive tackle instead of
Modzelewski in 1964. The Giants also got halfback Dick James in the Huff trade.
James had some good days against the Giants in previous years, so Sherman must
have coveted James.
Chuck Janerette was a reserve defensive tackle for the Giants in 1961 and 1962,
but left the Giants for the AFL in 1963. Janerette was good enough to be a
starter for 2 teams in the AFL (Jets and Broncos) in 1963, 1964, and 1965. The
Giants probably could have used him in 1964.
Allie Sherman apparently tried to head off the perceived problem of too many
good players to retire at about the same time by trading LB Cliff Livingston
(then 31) after the1961 season and Rosey Grier (then 31) after the 1962 season,
and Dick Modzelewski (then 32) after the 1963 season. Grier also had some
trouble keeping his weight down, which may have also been the reason for the
trade. The Huff trade may have been due to a personality clash with Sherman
because Sam was only 29 in 1963.
Anyway, sometimes stuff happens, and in 1964, it looks like a lot of stuff
happened to the New York Giants.
#19 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #19 Jagade
Posted 24 September 2014 - 12:55 AM
Here is something that some might find interesting. The 1967 Green Bay Packers
and the 1963 New York Giants both had the last big years of their championship
runs. The Pack won the Super Bowl in 1967, but then fell to a 6 and 8 record
the following year. The Giants played in their 6th NFL Championship game in 8
years in 1963, but then fell to last place in 1964. There are some similarities
with the 2 teams. One is that they both had 10 starters over 30 in that, their
last year playing in a championship game of that era. Here are the players with
their ages.
1967 Green Bay Packers:
1. Forrest Gregg RT 34
2.. Bart Starr QB 33
3. Willie Davis LDE 33
4. Bob Skoronski LT 33
5. Henry Jordan RDT 32
6. Jerry Kramer RG 31
7. Ray Nitschke MLB 31
8. Willie Wood RS 31
9. Bob Jeter RCB 30
10. Boyd Dowler WR 30
1963 New York Giants
1. Andy Robustelli LDE 38
2. Y. A. Tittle QB 37
3. Jack Stroud RT 35
4. Frank Gifford FL 33
5. Tom Scott LLB 33
6. Alex Webster FB 32
7. Dick Modzelewski RDT 32
8. Rosey Brown LT 31
9. Jim Patton RS 30
10. Allan Webb LS 30
If you wonder about Fuzzy Thurston, he was 34 in 1967, but Gale Gillingham is
listed as the starting left guard that year. Hugh McElhenny was 35 for the
Giants in 1963, but was a reserve and played for Detroit the following year.
Don Chandler played for both the 1963 Giants and the 1967 Packers. Chandler was
traded to Green Bay after the 1964 season; a good trade for him.
Not saying here that age is the reason that these teams fell or even that age
was the main reason. There were other things like trades that did not work out,
injuries, Vince leaving, etc. There is no way to know the exact reason for
these things happening.
#20 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #20 BD Sullivan
Posted 24 September 2014 - 01:51 PM
It's been pointed out before that Lombardi's draft acumen paled in comparison to
the guy who brought in the bulk of that Packer talent, Jack Vainisi. Obviously,
Allie Sherman's was even worse.
#21 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
Jagade PFRA Member
So, Lombardi was a great coach, but maybe not so great at building a team.
Vince did inherit a lot of talent at Green Bay.
I guess the metaphor for Allie Sherman was that he could drive a car, but could
not build one. Probably could use that one for many coaches.
#22 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #22 Jagade
Posted 28 September 2014 - 06:59 PM
Alex Webster admitted that he was over the hill in 1964, when he averaged only
2.8 yards per carry, which was way below his best. I think that in truth, he
was past it in 1963 as well. In 1963, Alex averaged 3.4 YPC and only played in
7 games due to injuries.
Alex missed much of the 1960 season, but came back in 1961 and really had a
great year. Webster averaged 4.7 YPC in 1961 gaining over 900 yards and also
caught 26 passes for more than 300 more. If not for people like Jim Brown and
Jim Taylor, then Alex may have been named to some All-Pro teams that year.
Another good year in 1962 with Webster averaging 3.6 YPC for over 700 yards and
catching 47 passes 477 yards.
Not so good in 1963 gaining 255 yards in 7 games and catching 15 passes for 128
yards. As mentioned before, Joe Morrison took up the slack for Alex averaging
4.8 yards per carry and was 2nd leading rusher for the Giants behind Phil King.
In 1964, a rival defensive lineman noted that Alex Webster can't hit the hole
anymore. Maybe in 1963 as well, but injuries probably played a part in that.
BTW, it might not seem to read like that here, but Alex Webster was one of my
favorite Giants, starting in 1955. Alex might be another good candidate for the
HOVG. I always thought that he was pretty good.
#23 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #23 Jagade
Posted 30 September 2014 - 12:33 AM
Here is something I just recently found out. The four contenders in the NFL
Eastern Conference in 1963 were the New York Giants, Cleveland Browns, St. Louis
Cardinals, and Pittsburgh Steelers. All teams in the Eastern Conference played
each other twice and each played two teams from the Western Conference.
The Giants, Browns, Cards, and Steelers each split wins against each other. In
other words, those four teams had a total of 3 wins and 3 losses in their games
against the other 3 contenders in the east. The Giants won the conference
title with a record of 11 wins and 3 losses in 1963, and played the Chicago
Bears in the NFL Championship game. Cleveland finished 10 and 4, Pittsburgh
7-4-3, and the Cards 9 and 5.
The thing that really won their conference for the Giants is that they beat both
of their western opponents, Baltimore (8 wins and 6 losses) and San Francisco (2
wins and 12 losses). The other 3 contenders all lost at least 1 game to Western
Conference teams. Cleveland lost to their old nemesis, Detroit, while St. Louis
and Pittsburgh both lost to Green Bay. Pittsburgh also played eventual champion
Chicago and managed to get a tie with the Bears.
Ties did not count for anything in 1963, so Pittsburgh still had a chance to win
the conference title with a win over the Giants in their season final game. The
Giants won that game 33 to 14 to move on to the championship game. St. Louis
went into their final game with a 9 and 4 record and played a weak Dallas team
(3 wins and 10 losses) at home, but the game was meaningless because the
conference title was to be decided by the winner of the Giants/Steelers game. A
win would do St. Louis no good, so the Cards lost to the lowly Cowboys, 28 to
24. I don't think that it is a stretch to say that St. Louis could and probably
would have won their game with Dallas if they had some incentive to win. A win
against Dallas in that game would have had the Cards finish the season with a 10
and 4 record.
Pittsburgh finished the 1963 season with a 7-4-3 record. Three of the Steelers
losses were to the other 3 contenders in the east, and the other loss was to
Green Bay. The Steelers got a tie with champion Chicago and strangely enough,
had 2 ties with a not very good Eagles team (2-10-2).
So, apparently what won the Eastern Conference title for the New York Giants was
the schedule, or the western opponents that they had to play. Suppose that we
switch things around and the Giants played Green Bay and Chicago that year and
Pittsburgh and St. Louis played Baltimore and last placed (2-12) San Francisco
in 1963. Would the Giants have still finished in first place? I have my doubts
that they would have.
Just something to think about.
#24 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #24 SixtiesFan
Posted 30 September 2014 - 01:13 AM
I followed that race closely. A game I especially recall watching on TV is the
Giant win over the Steelers in the last game. It had a big buildup at the time
with the Yankee Stadium crowd really up for it.
#25 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad: post #25
74_75_78_79_
Forum Visitors
Posted 01 October 2014 - 04:08 PM
Such a WEALTH of info from these 20 posts following what I, a glorified
sub-amateur NFL football connoisseur, started. Thank you ALL. After hearing both
expert sides of either '62 or '63, I'm still mostly torn. Had NYG beat Chicago
in '63 would that still have been considered by some to be...'tainted' due to
Hornung not being around in GB? A title is a title is a title and I know not all
experts feel this way but there are some who feel Chicago's title that year was
won due to it; and then you got the whole Gillman's Chargers debate to boot! Did
Sherman 'inherit' Howell's Giants enabling he to bring them to three straight
NFLCG-berths, or should the 'gap' between Allie and Jim Lee 'close' due to Allie
never having either Lombardi nor Landry at his disposal? With all the personnel
losses NYG suffered by the mid-'60s, would even all three coaches (Howell,
Lombardi, Landry) have been able to avert sub-500 ball? You put a gun to my
head, with all super-respect to those who say '63 Giants were better (Troup
included), I think I would still have to lean with '62 from what I'm able to
gather. Green Bay seemed at their peak in '62 (especially their ridiculous
run-attack and point-differential), they were 13-1, yet the G-men (yes, it was
at Yankees Stadium) played them quite respectably, losing by just 9. Maybe the
Bears would have still ultimately prevailed even with Hornung around in '63 (and
would have bettered SD too), but can't help but to instinctively be more
impressed with '62.
ps - you'd think the scheduling back then would have involved 1st place and last
place teams from the year before playing each other along with 2nd and 6th
placers playing one another all the way down to the 4th placers playing twice
(or last placers playing twice such the case with the conference set-up
'78-thru-'94). Would have made sense to have GB/NYG play one another in both '62
& '63 (NYG/Chi in '64, GB/Philly in '61, etc).
#26 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #26 Jagade
PFRA Member
Posted 04 October 2014 - 08:11 PM
Already mentioned here are injuries in 1964 to Giants Shofner, Tittle,
LoVetere, Webster, Stroud, etc., but the Giants did lose 3 of their first 4
games to start the 1964 season before most of these injuries. The trades of
Huff and Modzelewski also were considered a big part of the Giants' problems
that year, but the teams' troubles were not only on defense, as evidenced by the
6 sacks in the 38 to 7 loss to a very mediocre Philadelphia team in the opener.
I noticed watching the 1963 Giants that Y. A. Tittle often just barely got off
passes before a pass rusher was to get to him. Often, those passes went for big
gains, especially ones to Shofner, who had another tremendous season. Still,
maybe signs of decline. I mentioned Webster being a little past it in 1963.
Maybe Robustelli and Modzelewski as well.
Robustelli made some big plays, but mostly against teams like the Eagles and
Washington in routs. Andy was 38 that year, and I think that he was held in
check for the most part by tackles like Cleveland's Schafrath, and Pittsburgh's
Charlie Bradshaw (I noticed that Andy got a sack on Frank Ryan on one play, but
I don't think that anyone blocked him. Schafrath apparently blocked the DT on
that play, so there was probably a screw up of some kind by the Browns).
Anyway, I doubt that Andy was quite the force that he was in previous years, but
what the heck; how many players can even play, or play at that level at 38?
Modzelewski was traded to Cleveland in 1964, and Art Modell and some others
heaped much praise on him, but don't forget; by making Dick Modzelewski look
good, Art was also making himself look good for making the trade for Dick.
Modzelewski was popular with other players on the team and was said to inject a
winning spirit to the 1964 Browns, and there could be truth to that, but was he
physically the same player as he was in say,1959? Maybe. Maybe not.
Things just seemed to fall into place for the Giants in 1963. Dick Lynch seemed
to intercept anything that came near him that year. I believe that he was just
as good in 1962, but maybe just did not get as many opportunities for intercepts
as he did the following year. The fact that the passing game was sensational in
1963 (as in 1962) and many well timed interceptions probably covered up flaws in
the team that became more apparent and worse in 1964.
Also mentioned before is that the Giants had an easier schedule than their main
rivals in the east in 1963, with both Pittsburgh and St. Louis having to play
and losing to Green Bay. The fact that the Giants did not have hardly any major
injuries to key players also was a big break.
And so, though mostly unnoticed, the 1963 New York Giants were probably a team
in decline, despite winning another conference championship.
#27 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #27 Jagade
Posted 08 October 2014 - 12:04 AM
The Giants defensive right cornerback, Dick Lynch, is another of those early
1960's Giants players that I think would be a real good candidate for the HOVG.
From 1961 through 1963, he just seemed to be everywhere.
Lynch would join already mentioned Alex Webster and Jack Stroud as players who I
believe should eventually join those that have already been voted in.
I will throw in Joe Morrison as a good candidate. Morrison was a valuable
player for those Y.A. Tittle Giants teams as well as their later (Fran
Tarkenton) teams. Joe played about half a dozen different positions for the
1960's Giants, and played them very well.
Jim Katcavage is another one who I think belongs. I am a little surprised that
he hasn't been voted in already.
#28 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #28 SixtiesFan
Forum Visitors
I recall Dick Lynch returning three inteceptions for TD's in 1963. He would time
a sideline pass just right, pick it off and sprint to the end zone.
#29 Best Allie Sherman Giants squad:
post #29 Jagade
Posted 10 October 2014, 12:47 AM
Guard Darrell Dess was another good one for the Y.A. Tittle era Giants teams.
One thing that seems strange to me about Dess is that he was named to All-Pro
teams (mostly 2nd team) only in 1963. I wonder why that is? In all his years
with the Giants, was he that much better in 1963 than in any of his other years?
The only thing that I can figure is that 1963 was the first time in 5 years that
Jack Stroud was not named to any All-Pro teams (first or second team), so the
sportswriters voted in another Giant offensive lineman (Dess) to make up for it.
Either that or Darrell did some spectacular things in 1963 that he didn't do in
other years.
Anyone know anything about this?
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