Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

SixtiesFan wrote:

JameisLoseston wrote:Getting to the more topical matter of the running backs. Here's how I'd rate their likelihood of making the team:

Locks: Brown, OJ, Payton, Sanders, Emmitt, LT

Should be in: SVB, Motley, Dickerson, AP

Coin flip: Moore, Taylor, Faulk

Will make it over someone more deserving because the company line loves him: Nagurski

Low chance: Campbell, Clark, Grange, Dorsett, Sayers

No chance: Allen, Bettis, Harris, McElhenny, Thomas

Have a feeling one of the two receiving backs may get the shaft for Bronko; Moore's stats don't pop out on either side until you consider them total from scrimmage (at which point he greatly outproduces Motley and Taylor), and Faulk played in an era when so many RBs were so great that he may be overlooked. I think one of them will make it though. Grange may have a higher chance than I'm giving him here too. I'm truly confused at McElhenny making the nominees but not Joe Perry.

I was glad to see Jim Taylor on the list as in the past he hasn't been mentioned as one of the great backs. The numbers Taylor put up in the early 60's (first to have five straight 1000 yard seasons) were better than anybody except Jim Brown at the time. Taylor was a good receiver also and good in big games. Jim Taylor may not be in the top 12 but he's in the top 24.

Taylor was also a very good blocker. In the Packer version of the famous sweep, the fullback had to take on the LDT. When other teams tried to copy the sweep, they couldn't do it that way because none of them had a fullback who could take on a defensive tackle.

Reaser wrote:

JohnTurney wrote:TOp 100 players----is it players? Complete players?

Payton and LT are like Faulk, Payton even a bit better because he also lead blocked well
but Barry Sanders gets far more ink and he was often taken out in short yardage, was a so-so
receiver and blocker.

We'll see if this is just a pick of highlight guys or if some scouting reports and overall talent
were taken into account

On the previous page when I saw the complaint about Allen as a finalist, I thought like the above. Not that he should be in the Top 12 (wouldn't be in my Top 12) but if we're talking complete players he's twice the football player someone like Bettis is and there's a lot more to his game than "only three 1,000 rushing seasons". In the same category as Payton, Faulk, LT -clearly not as good as them, in my opinion- with the running, receiving, blocking, football IQ/'like having another QB on the field' and so on. That type of player. Gets underrated, in that respect. A level down from the three mentioned but it puts him above some on the list and obviously above many not on the list of finalists.

But he was never particularly great at any of those things. Following 1985 he only eclipsed 50 receptions out of the backfield once as well. Never really saw him as a particularly great blocker. Good...sure. He was useful, he could do a lot of things. Injured often. But 1986-1992 he was no better than Freeman McNeil. And I do recognize Al Davis shenanigans perhaps played a role too

His late career resurgence in KC was impressive so I credit him for that. But they used him right too. 12-16 carries a game. A few dump offs. But not someone who was or could ever be a bell cow aside for a brief window.

The Coaching Finalists (10 make team):

Bill Belichick
Paul Brown
Guy Chamberlin
Tony Dungy
Weeb Ewbank
Joe Gibbs
Sid Gillman
Bud Grant
George Halas
Curly Lambeau
Tom Landry
Marv Levy
Vince Lombardi
John Madden
Chuck Noll
Steve Owen
Bill Parcells
Fritz Pollard
Don Shula
Bill Walsh

My take:

Locks: Belichick, Brown, Halas, Landry, Lombardi, Shula

Should be in: Lambeau, Noll, Walsh

Maybe: Ewbank, Gibbs

Low chance: Gillman, Levy, Madden, Parcells, Pollard

No chance: Chamberlin, Dungy, Grant, Owen

JameisLoseston wrote:The Coaching Finalists (10 make team):

Bill Belichick
Paul Brown
Guy Chamberlin
Tony Dungy
Weeb Ewbank
Joe Gibbs
Sid Gillman
Bud Grant
George Halas
Curly Lambeau
Tom Landry
Marv Levy
Vince Lombardi
John Madden
Chuck Noll
Steve Owen
Bill Parcells
Fritz Pollard
Don Shula
Bill Walsh

My take:

Locks: Belichick, Brown, Halas, Landry, Lombardi, Shula

Should be in: Lambeau, Noll, Walsh

Maybe: Ewbank, Gibbs

Low chance: Gillman, Levy, Madden, Parcells, Pollard

No chance: Chamberlin, Dungy, Grant, Owen

Walsh I think is a lock. Same with Noll, considering his long career in Pittsburgh, the four Super Bowls, and also being the DC of the 1968 Colts. I think Lambeau is also likely, and the final guy should be Gillman for his offensive innovations, but I think they may go with Madden.

I get to thinking with Walsh. If only he didn't retire at 56 with 3 under his belt. No doubt he'd have won 5. Would he have won 6? I personally believe yes

Fritz Pollard. I mean I understand but...being the first at something doesn't mean your name can be mentioned among the greatest of all time

Dungy is on the list and Tom Flores is not? Dick Vermeil is not? Jimmy Johnson is not? I mean come on now. Over Mike Homgren too?

JameisLoseston wrote:With OJ, I feel like we often forget that, well, he was found not guilty way back when. Not saying he's some great guy, but he did call out AB on Twitter this year, so props to that. If we continue to hold the trial against him, we're doing so only in the court of public opinion, and let's just say that the court of public opinion is what is continuing to keep AB and Kaepernick out of football, and got Kareem Hunt cut from a team that would very much be winning more football games with him on its roster this year, so it has less than zero merit. He's an undisputed top 10 RB, I may argue top five, and by 75 he had definitely learned how to catch the ball. He will make the team.

OJ was found liable for the deaths in a civil court. So legally speaking, it's more likely than not that he was responsible for the deaths, but it's not certain beyond a reasonable doubt. OJ made the Top 100 List of NFL Films several years ago. I can't imagine him missing out now. Top 5 all time along with Barry, Emmitt, Brown and Payton.

Rupert Patrick wrote:Walsh I think is a lock. Same with Noll, considering his long career in Pittsburgh, the four Super Bowls, and also being the DC of the 1968 Colts. I think Lambeau is also likely, and the final guy should be Gillman for his offensive innovations, but I think they may go with Madden.

Think the same but I didn't want 9 locks, weird things happen and as I've said the NFL has disappointed me before. I'd go with Gillman or Ewbank as the last guy too, but hardly anyone remembers them anymore toiling under the monumental shadow of Lombardi, so I think they'll go with someone more recent like Gibbs or Madden.

Counterpoint on Gillman though, his resume is very much like Don Coryell's, who didn't even get nominated. Major passing game innovations, spent quite a bit of time in college, even both primarily coached the Chargers, but never won a ton, regular season or championships. Honestly the similarities are eerie. Ewbank has the titles, but also lost a lot in between. Gibbs and Madden fit the all around winning bill far better, so they're more likely imo.

sheajets wrote:But he was never particularly great at any of those things. Following 1985 he only eclipsed 50 receptions out of the backfield once as well. Never really saw him as a particularly great blocker. Good...sure. He was useful, he could do a lot of things. Injured often. But 1986-1992 he was no better than Freeman McNeil. And I do recognize Al Davis shenanigans perhaps played a role too

His late career resurgence in KC was impressive so I credit him for that. But they used him right too. 12-16 carries a game. A few dump offs. But not someone who was or could ever be a bell cow aside for a brief window.

I imagine I view him as a better blocker, then. But don't need to split-hairs or anything, plus not making an argument he should be one of the 12, anyway. Just that he gets underrated.

One thing I'd add, since usually people are quick to goto regular season stats (for what it's worth I'm not a big stats person, prefer to watch the games) is that people almost always leave out post-season stats (or performances for those that like to watch football.) Which never makes sense to me, since those are the most important games. I always brought that up for the million TD v. Bettis threads we used to have here and I'd say it for Allen, too.

Sure someone will/can look it up but Allen probably doubles someone like Bettis on playoff career scrimmage yards per game, definitely beats the exciting Barry Sanders who really put together a highlight reel in the playoffs, more than Tomlinson who never really had big playoff games that I can remember (loss to NE comes to mind and maybe his game against the Colts with the Jets?), and would beat a lot of guys; Payton, Faulk, will keep it to expanded playoffs (SB era) since not a like-for-like comparison with Jim Brown, but even guys who did have multiple big playoff games like Emmitt or Franco or Riggins, he'd be in their category but pretty sure above them on scrimmage yards per playoff game played, too.

Other than Davis who is way out there, at least statistically, Allen was consistent and showed up in the playoffs (most important games) more than a lot of all-time great (and 'great') backs, and in some of those big games did more than just show up. His honors beat a lot of guys, too, since he has an MVP, OPOY and SB MVP. To me, those things coupled with what was mentioned before (football player > just a runner) make him great. Not just being merely good and playing a long time, as his career is viewed. That applies to other on the list of finalists, but Allen was great and the best player in football (via recognition as MVP) at one point so greatness is there, and he showed that greatness on the field in the games that mattered most.

Reaser wrote:Sure someone will/can look it up but Allen probably doubles someone like Bettis on playoff career scrimmage yards per game, definitely beats the exciting Barry Sanders who really put together a highlight reel in the playoffs, more than Tomlinson who never really had big playoff games that I can remember (loss to NE comes to mind and maybe his game against the Colts with the Jets?), and would beat a lot of guys; Payton, Faulk, will keep it to expanded playoffs (SB era) since not a like-for-like comparison with Jim Brown, but even guys who did have multiple big playoff games like Emmitt or Franco or Riggins, he'd be in their category but pretty sure above them on scrimmage yards per playoff game played, too.

Had a moment so looked it up myself. Just did the players who are among the 24 finalists AND who played their entire careers in the SB era -- so "playoffs" is comparable. Includes games various players didn't start or got injured in and so on though I did take out one game for Bettis since he DNP.

Scrimmage Yards per Playoff Game played:
M. Allen: 117.3 sypg in 16 career playoff games
E. Dickerson: 116.4 ypg in 7 games
E. Smith: 113.4 ypg in 17 games
F. Harris: 108.4 ypg in 19 games
T. Dorsett: 105.1 ypg in 17 games
T. Thomas: 100.7 ypg in 21 games
M. Faulk: 93.4 ypg in 12 games
A. Peterson: 93.2 ypg in 5 games
W. Payton: 90.0 ypg in 9 games
O. Simpson: 86.0 ypg in 1 game
B. Sanders: 82.8 ypg in 6 games
E. Campbell: 77.5 ypg in 6 games
L. Tomlinson: 64.4 ypg in 10 games
J. Bettis: 56.2 ypg in 13 games*
* - since he was active but DNP against BAL didn't count that game. If counted for some reason, 52.2 sypg in 14 games

Agree on Allen - playoffs are a big part of his resume. He was a childhood friend's favorite player and we all rooted against each others' teams - I went back to doing my homework after that SB TD run against Redskins and just left the game on in the other room.

Depending on how you view the '24 Bulldogs, Chamberlin coached 3 different teams to championships in the 20s. Glad he at least got nominated - I actually have him on my team taking up one of the WR spots.

Pollard didn't coach the '20 championship Akron team - he was co-coach of the '21 team and also coached a pretty poor Hammond team in '25. If they wanted to recognize Pollard, they should have nominated him with the running backs - placing on the coach list is pretty bizarre.