Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Bryan wrote:

sheajets wrote:So...he's getting credit for Ron Erhardt achievement?

I would nominate Ron Erhardt's 1980 Patriots gameplan against the Colts for the Hall of Fame. "Their going to Washington...their going to Washington...what the hell!!"

Joe Washington had such a distinct look on the field. His facemask was extremely far from his face. Also remember him getting taunted at Shea for wearing that pacifier mouthgard.

JohnH19 wrote:Great post, Ralph! It amazes me to no end how the Patriots’ doubters never give up searching for something to diminish their incredible run.

Sorry you don't like what I am stating. It's all facts. I'm not making those statements up.

sluggermatt15 wrote:

JohnH19 wrote:Great post, Ralph! It amazes me to no end how the Patriots’ doubters never give up searching for something to diminish their incredible run.

Sorry you don't like what I am stating. It's all facts. I'm not making those statements up.

No you aren't making it up. But you are also leaving out other important facts in order to make your opinion look more valid.

Well the Super Bowl solidified Belichick even more as an all-time great. He just flat out out coached McVay. Sure the Patriots had a very good chance of winning anyways but holding that Rams offense to three points in a Super Bowl? Just a spectacularly impressive coaching job.

It's funny the way they reflexively put the camera on him after every significant play, hoping to get some kind of reaction. I mean, it's been 18 years, and no matter what's just happened on the field, he always looks like he swallowed a bug. Haven't they figured that out by now?

Bob Gill wrote:It's funny the way they reflexively put the camera on him after every significant play, hoping to get some kind of reaction. I mean, it's been 18 years, and no matter what's just happened on the field, he always looks like he swallowed a bug. Haven't they figured that out by now?

In a lot of ways, as on on-field coach, Bill Belichick reminds me of Chuck Noll in that he always maintains an even strain during a game. You never see Belichick lose his temper on the field or scream at a player on the sidelines during the game, he is so focused on the game that if a call doesn't go his way, he just shrugs it off and moves on.

After last night's game, I think only those who do not like Belichick dismiss him as one of the greatest of all time. I am not a Patriots fan, but he is third on the regular season all-time wins list, only behind Shula and Halas, His regular season all-time winning percentage of .682 is virtually the same as Shula at .677 and Halas at .680. In the biggest playoff games, time and time again his game plans have diffused and defeated the top quarterbacks and the most high-powered offenses, from Peyton Manning and Ben Roethlisberger and Kurt Warner to Phillip Rivers and Mahomes and Goff this year. Throw in the six Super Bowl rings, the 31-11 career record in the postseason as a coach, his work as an DC in New York under Parcells (two more Super Bowl rings) kinda seals it for me as his being in the very innermost circle of the greatest coaches ever, if not THE greatest ever. I still give the nod for greatest ever coach to Paul Brown, for his innovations, but Belichick is right behind him in my book.

Rupert Patrick wrote:In the biggest playoff games, time and time again his game plans have diffused and defeated the top quarterbacks and the most high-powered offenses, from Peyton Manning and Ben Roethlisberger and Kurt Warner to Phillip Rivers and Mahomes and Goff this year.

Not disputing anything in your post, but just for the record, Peyton Manning's team faced Belichick and Brady in four AFC championship games, and Manning's team won three out of four. Belichick's only victory came in the first one, after the 2004 season. It doesn't have anything to do with Belichick's rank among the all-time greats, but it's a nugget that I don't think many people realize, since it's not part of the popular "narrative."

Bob Gill wrote:

Rupert Patrick wrote:In the biggest playoff games, time and time again his game plans have diffused and defeated the top quarterbacks and the most high-powered offenses, from Peyton Manning and Ben Roethlisberger and Kurt Warner to Phillip Rivers and Mahomes and Goff this year.

Not disputing anything in your post, but just for the record, Peyton Manning's team faced Belichick and Brady in four AFC championship games, and Manning's team won three out of four. Belichick's only victory came in the first one, after the 2004 season. It doesn't have anything to do with Belichick's rank among the all-time greats, but it's a nugget that I don't think many people realize, since it's not part of the popular "narrative."

While that is true however the Patriots also beat the Colts in the divisional round in one of those early years as well. When you look at Brady and Peyton Manning matchups when you include everything it was split about 50/50. Brady probably had the better teams in the early years while Manning had the better teams in the later years. The one thing that separates these two players in my mind (and why I don't think a Manning lead team could go on a run like this) is that I'm not sure Manning was quite the leader or overall team player that Brady is. I think Manning was more talented than Brady but I think Tom's intangibles were better than Peyton's.

Rupert Patrick wrote:I still give the nod for greatest ever coach to Paul Brown, for his innovations, but Belichick is right behind him in my book.

Brown came into pro football at a time where it was played, coached, and run very poorly and inefficiently. He made all those innovations, but at the same time, the improvements were all ripe for the picking. How does that factor in when comparing him to a coach who is working in a system that is far more complicated, and less ripe for improvement, and has mastered that system far beyond what anyone else has done?

It's kind of a "Columbus vs. Lewis and Clark" type of comparison, in a way, and I don't know what the answer is. What are your thoughts?

Brown came into pro football at a time where it was played, coached, and run very poorly and inefficiently. He made all those innovations, but at the same time, the improvements were all ripe for the picking. How does that factor in when comparing him to a coach who is working in a system that is far more complicated, and less ripe for improvement, and has mastered that system far beyond what anyone else has done?

Brown wasn't a cheater, though (as far as we know). The Pats cheated in several ways, like having an extra frequency in Brady's helmet, stealing the other team's audibles, and swiping the other teams' play sheets (not to mention filming the other team in unauthorized areas).

In addition, they have benefited from the rules changes over the years that seem to de-emphasize athleticism and protect immobile QB's (namely a guy wearing #12).

Look up The Asterisk by Vern Nicholson on E-Bay or Amazon (you can also preview it on Google Books). He goes into a lot of these issues.