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Re: Your Team's Worst Defeat
Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:10 pm
by Saban1
Saban wrote:BD Sullivan wrote:In 1967, the Browns came close to losing their home game against the Cardinals in October and their two November home games:
*Against St. Louis, they led 17-16 with less than five minutes and facing a third and two. Frank Ryan, not known for his mobility, escaped a sack and got the first down, with Groza adding a FG.
*Against Minnesota, they trailed 10-7 with 3:30 left. Minnesota had the ball at midfield, but the Browns forced a fumble. They drove down the field and Leroy Kelly scored with 28 seconds left.
*Against Washington, Sonny Jurgensen threw for 418 yards and got the ball down to the Cleveland 25 with 48 seconds left and the Browns leading 42-37. Three tries went nowhere and then he was sacked by Bill Glass.
Here is what I think about those three games in Cleveland, for what it is worth:
St. Louis - The Cardinals always gave Cleveland a tough time in Cleveland in those days. They were always up for the Browns in their first games of those years (1964-69). Cleveland was a little lucky to win that one in 1967.
Minnesota - The Browns were vocal after their 55 to 7 loss to Green Bay and said some things that were bulletin board material for the Vikings. Hence, the Vikings came into Cleveland very high for that game. Minnesota was a better team than their record indicated and were getting close to becoming a dynasty. It turned out to be a tough, nasty game, and the Browns were fortunate to get the win.
Washington - Cleveland had beaten Washington about 8 or 9 times in a row and last lost to the Redskins in 1962. Might have had a hard time getting up for that game. Besides, they had their next game against the Giants who had beaten Cleveland in New York, so they may have been looking ahead. Cleveland's defense did play tough against the Giants the following week in Cleveland as the Browns won, 24 to 14.
Yes, Cleveland did have some close games at home in 1967, but were never blown out, as they were on the road. Their lone home loss was a 21 to 14 loss to Dallas in the opener.
BTW, I forgot to mention that Cleveland missed middle linebacker Vince Costello, who was traded to the Giants in the preseason. Middle linebacker became a problem area for the Browns from 1967 on for some years. Costello played well for New York in 1967 even though he was 35 years old. He was a key in the Giants 38 to 34 upset win over Cleveland that year. Too bad that Art had traded away Mike Lucci.
They also missed tight end Milt Morin, who missed much of the 1967 season due to injury. Ralph "Catfish" Smith was an adequate replacement, but Morin was a rising star.
Milt Morin was Cleveland's first round draft choice in 1966. He was big (6'4" and about 240 lbs.), could catch passes and was an excellent blocker. He could also run over tacklers after catching a pass. I guess that he had everything needed to be a very good tight end in the NFL. A good candidate for our Hall of Very Good, IMO.
Catfish Smith was a better than adequate backup tight end I believe. He played 8 years in the NFL, mostly as a reserve tight end (He backed up Pete Retzlaff at Philadelphia for 3 years and John Brewer in Cleveland in 1965 before Morin came to the Browns in 1966). Milt Morin was injured in 1967, so Smith was the starting tight end for Cleveland for most of that year.
Smith was traded to Atlanta in 1969, probably because the Browns 3rd round draft choice that year was Charles "Chip" Glass. who was about the same size as Morin and probably thought to have good potential. Glass backed up Morin in his time at Cleveland. Smith played one year in Atlanta before retiring.
I think that Catfish Smith must have been a good blocking tight end to last 8 years in the NFL and to play 4 years for Cleveland in those days. He was a star and all around athlete at U. of Mississippi. also being good at basketball, baseball, and track. He also was one of the heroes of the Cleveland Browns comeback win over the New York Giants in 1966 when Cleveland came from 20 points behind in the 3rd quarter to win 49 to 40.
Re: Your Team's Worst Defeat
Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:41 am
by Saban1
Oops, made a mistake in my last post. Catfish Smith was not traded to Atlanta in 1969, but was sold to the New Orleans Saints that year. Smith did not play for the Saints, but somehow ended up playing for the Falcons to play one more season.
I don't know if Smith was traded to Cleveland from Philadelphia or picked up on waivers by the Browns in 1965. I wonder if John Brewer had anything to do with Catfish Smith joining the Brown because Brewer and Smith were teammates at Mississippi. Maybe Brewer put a bug in Art Modell's or Blanton Collier's ear.
Ironically, Smith ended up backing up John Brewer at tight end for Cleveland in 1965. In 1966, rookie Milt Morin became the starting tight end for the Browns and Brewer was moved to right linebacker where he was the starter for a couple of years before being traded to New Orleans.
Cleveland's great guard Gene Hickerson also may have known Catfish Smith from Mississippi because he played there too, but that may have been before Smith played there.
Re: Your Team's Worst Defeat
Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:34 pm
by Saban1
Here is another one. The New York Giants lost to the Pittsburgh Steelers 63 to 7 in 1952. Giants quarterbacks were injured, and Tom Landry ended up playing quarterback that day for New York. Apparently he did not do too well.
Getting back to Ralph "Catfish" Smith: Smith apparently was cut by the Philadelphia Eagles sometime in 1965 and was picked up by the Cleveland Browns on 8/30/65. That is from information that I have that I think is correct. Catfish Smith was a good pickup for Cleveland as he got plenty of playing time in 1966 and 1967 when tight end Milt Morin was injured.
Re: Your Team's Worst Defeat
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:36 pm
by Saban1
I don't know if it's the worst defeat for the Philadelphia Eagles, but it has to be right up there if it's not. In 1966, the Eagles lost 56 to 7 to the Dallas Cowboys. Ironically, the Eagles had their best record that year (9 wins,5 losses) in between 1961 and the Dick Vermeil era and played in the old playoff bowl (1960's game between the 2nd place teams in the NFL Eastern and Western Conferences).
Actually, the Eagles and Browns both tied for second in the east that year, but Philadelphia got to play in that game, maybe because Cleveland had already previously played in the playoff bowl.
Another update on Ralph "Catfish" Smith. Smith was cut by the Eagles along with 8 other players on either 8/30/65 or 8/31/65. Smith was almost immediately picked up by Cleveland who needed a tight end to back up John Brewer..
I suspect that Catfish Smith was not protected from the expansion drafts of 1966 (Atlanta Falcons) or 1967 (New Orleans Saints), but both teams took 3 other players from Cleveland.
For anyone interested, Atlanta took safety Larry Benz, safety Bobby Franklin, and guard Dale Memmelaar in 1966. New Orleans took tackle Jim Battle, center John Morrow, and back/wide receiver Walter "the Flea" Roberts in 1967. Maybe Smith was protected from those expansion drafts. Anyone know?
Re: Your Team's Worst Defeat
Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:50 am
by 7DnBrnc53
I vote for Super Bowl XXIV for Denver. Elway had a terrible day passing; he was overthrowing receivers, underthrowing receivers; everything but hitting them in stride. When people talk about Steve Atwater as a great hitter, I always think back to Jerry Rice bouncing off him and running in for the first score. (I then think about him taking down the Nigerian Nightmare on MNF. Kind of balances it out.)
I watched that game again online. Yes, Elway didn't have a great day throwing the ball, but it wasn't only because he was missing guys. His receivers weren't really open. SF's secondary was physical on their WR's, and they exposed them for how bad they were. Why do you think they resorted to throwing shuffle passes to Bobby Humphrey on their second drive of the game?
Saints?
'80 collapse at Candlestick, perhaps, first thought. Epidemy of 'the Aints'. However, IMO, that '80 campaign goes down as a disaster even if they do hang on. MNF-loss to Raiders year prior comes to mind only to then be self-reminded that even if they do win (assuming they still lose to SD next week), Saints are still boxed-out going into finale due to Rams' better division record (5-0 to 3-2). on their second possession?
I don't think that the 1978 and 79 Saints had one tough loss. They had three heartbreaking losses to Atlanta, one to Pittsburgh, and one to the Raiders. If those games go their way, they are in the playoffs in 78 for sure, and maybe they win the West in 79, which probably would have helped the vibe in that locker room significantly (although there was significant drug use going on which also played a factor in their 1980 demise).
Speaking of 1980, that collapse at San Fran late in the season may have been devastating. If they blow out the 49ers, maybe Bill Walsh isn't encouraged enough to return as coach (he thought about resigning after the blowout against Dallas and after a close loss to Miami), and their 80's dynasty doesn't get off the ground (which is helpful to the Saints moving forward because it improves their chances of winning the NFC West).
Re: Your Team's Worst Defeat
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:01 am
by Saban1
I guess people could argue that the Cleveland Browns 59 to 14 loss to Detroit in the 1957 championship game would be their worst loss, and they could have a point. Here is one opinion on what happened.
The Browns and the Lions had a fierce rivalry when I first started watching pro football during the 1950's, both teams winning 3 NFL championships. In the 1954 title game, Cleveland beat Detroit 56 to 10 as quarterback Otto Graham passed for 3 touchdowns and ran for 3 more. It would be awhile before Detroit would forget that game.
Detroit fell to last place in 1955, as Cleveland won another NFL championship beating the Rams 38 to 14 in the title game. Otto Graham then retired after the 1955 season after leading the Browns to 10 straight league championship games starting in 1946 and 6 straight NFL title games starting in 1950.
In 1956, Cleveland, without Graham, fell to a 5 and 7 record while Detroit came back to narrowly miss winning the Western Conference with a 9 and 3 record. In 1957, Cleveland got a rookie fullback named Jim Brown and some other rookies like QB Milt Plum, LB Vince Costello, G Fred Robinson, and DE's Bill Quinlan and Paul Wiggin as Paul Brown was rebuilding the Browns after many retirements. Detroit made a big trade, acquiring QB Tobin Rote and also acquired FB John Henry Johnson. The Rote trade was to be big for the Lions.
Cleveland surprisingly won the Eastern Conference in 1957 while Detroit beat the 49ers in a playoff to win the Western Conference. In that game, the Lions came back from a 24 to 7 deficit to win 31 to 27 in one of the greatest comebacks in football history. So, the scene was set for an NFL championship game between Cleveland and Detroit at Detroit.
Cleveland started the season with Tommy O'Connell at QB. O'Connell was picked up on waivers about halfway through the 1956 season and ended up starting at quarterback due to season ending injuries to both of Cleveland's main QB's that year. O'Connell had a fractured ankle about a month before the end of the 1957 season, so rookie QB Plum started the rest of the regular season.
Detroit's QB, Bobby Layne, had a season ending injury in the 2nd from last regular season game, leaving the starting QB job to Tobin Rote. Rote had been a starting QB for years with Green Bay and could run with the ball as well as pass, so Detroit was still left in experienced hands despite Layne's injury.
A couple of days before the title game, Milt Plum suffered a pulled hamstring. Because of that injury, Cleveland decided to go with a rusty O'Connell at quarterback, which turned out to be a big mistake. After being out for about a month, O'Connell proved to not be ready after playing well during the early part of the season (O'Connell led the league in passing in 1957).
Early in the game, Detroit scored a field goal. O'Connell next threw an interception that was returned to Cleveland's 19 yard line. Detroit Got a TD shortly after. On the kickoff, rookie Milt Campbell fumbled leading the Lions to an easy TD making the score 17 to 7 (Jim Brown had scored a TD on a run for the Browns somewhere in there). A little later, Detroit lined up for a field goal try. Holder Tobin Rote kept the ball and passed for another TD, making the score 24 to 7. Still in the first half, O'Connell threw a pick 6, and Cleveland was really a beaten team at halftime with the score 31 to 7.
Milt Plum replaced O'Connell at quarterback before the half and played the rest of the game. Detroit scored 14 points in the 3rd quarter and 14 more in the 4th. One TD was after a Plum fumble in the backfield. It was great revenge for the Lions who no doubt enjoyed their big win over Cleveland after getting blown out 3 years earlier, 56 to 10.
For Cleveland's part, I will say that this was not the same team that had won all those championships during the Otto Graham era, but a rebuilt team with 11 rookies and 3 players returning from the military. Gone were not only Graham, but Dante Lavelli, Mac Speedie, Marion Motley, Dub Jones, Bill Willis, Frank Gatski, Tommy James, Horace Gillom, Chic Jagade, Curly Morrison, Mo Bassett, Lou Rymkus, Abe Gibron, John Kissell, Lin Houston,George Young, Tommy Thompson, etc., and Len Ford was in his last season with Cleveland and I think was past his best.
Re: Your Team's Worst Defeat
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:47 pm
by Todd Pence
CARDINALS: 12/9/12 58-0 to Seahawks
FALCONS: 12/4/76 59-0 to Rams
RAVENS: 11/9/97 37-0 to Steelers
BILLS: 11/18/07 56-10 to Patriots
PANTHERS: 12/24/00 52-9 to Raiders
BEARS: 9/27/64 52-0 to Colts
BENGALS: 9/28/86 44-7 to Bears; 9/24/00 37-0 to Ravens; 1/3/10 37-0 to Jets
BROWNS: 11/12/67 55-7 to Packers; 11/9/69 51-3 to Vikings; 12/3/00 48-0 to Jaguars
COWBOYS: 11/17/85 44-0 to Bears
BRONCOS: 9/7/63 59-7 to Chiefs
LIONS: 10/19/41 49-0 to Bears; 10/1/61 49-0 to 49ers
PACKERS: 11/2/58 56-0 to Colts
TEXANS: 11/3/02 38-3 to Bengals; 11/14/04 49-14 to Colts
COLTS: 11/25/62 57-0 to Bears
JAGUARS: 12/17/95 44-0 to Lions
CHIEFS: 11/7/76 45-0 to Steelers; 11/4/84 45-0 to Seahawks; 9/18/11 48-3 to Lions
RAMS:12/27/87 48-0 to 49ers
DOLPHINS: 1/15/00 62-7 to Jaguars
VIKINGS: 12/8/84 51-7 to 49ers
PATRIOTS: 11/12/72 52-0 to Dolphins
SAINTS: 9/16/73 62-7 to Falcons
GIANTS: 11/30/52 63-7 to Steelers
JETS: 9/9/79 56-3 to Patriots
RAIDERS: 9/9/61 55-0 to Oilers
EAGLES: 11/26/72 62-10 to Giants
STEELERS: 9/10/89 51-0 to Browns
CHARGERS:12/13/64 49-6 to Chiefs
49ERS: 11/9/58 56-7 to Rams
SEAHAWKS: 11/27/80 51-7 to Cowboys
BUCCANEERS: 10/9/11 48-3 to 49ers
TITANS: 10/18/09 59-0 to Patriots
REDSKINS: 12/8/40 73-0 to Bears
Re: Your Team's Worst Defeat
Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:47 pm
by Saban1
One game that slipped through the cracks was Detroit's 59 to 13 loss in their 1968 opener to the Dallas Cowboys.
From 1966 through 1968, Dallas, with Don Meredith reaching his prime and Bob Hayes giving the Cowboys a real deep threat, and with their "doomsday defense," Dallas ran up some big scores, like 52 to 7 against the Giants, 56 to 7 against the Eagles, and 52 to 21 against Pittsburgh, all in 1966. Then there was my favorite, the 52 to 14 win against Cleveland in the 1967 Eastern Conference playoff game.
Meredith was a good quarterback, but probably mostly forgotten with the passage of time and more well known for his time on Monday Night Football.
Re: Your Team's Worst Defeat
Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:22 pm
by Saban1
Here are a couple of honorable mentions:
In 1953, the Cleveland Browns beat the New York Giants, 62 to 14. In 1954, these same Browns beat the Washington Redskins, 62 to 3.
Re: Your Team's Worst Defeat
Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 10:45 am
by rhickok1109
As far as I'm concerned, my team's worst defeat is always the most recent one.
So, ATM, it's Redskins 42, Packers 24 on Nov. 20, 2016.