Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Ronfitch wrote: Perhaps offer a digital subscription with membership, with the option to purchase a subscription to the physical version to members? Just enough to cover the costs involved with the physical subscription, noted to members as they opt-in for that.

Has there been a survey of members as to their preference/willing to pay for physical archive/etc. in the context of costs involved/keeping membership fee stable/opportunities to increase membership and increase the reach of the organization?

Would it serve the organization to offer a subscription to either a digital or physical version to non-members?

Naively, I am just asking.

A few years ago, we batted around the idea of an electronic-only membership. Only one person signed up for it. It would be a good idea to push the issue harder with the membership to see if we can get more to go the electronic-only route. Like Jeff, I prefer having a hard copy. However, the hard copies I have now fill a full filing cabinet, so space can be an issue for some.

Ken Crippen wrote:

Jeremy Crowhurst wrote: Honestly, Ken, I don't know if I'm a member. I don't remember when I joined (it sure as hell wasn't October 11, 2014, as it says on the "members" link in the top right corner), so I don't know when my membership expires (or expired). I got the mass email in January saying "hey, everybody please remember to renew", but that's it. (Well, in fairness I also get the emails from Andy every couple of weeks trying to sell me books and DVDs....)

The old forum at least had that thing by your name that said if you were a member or not. Shouldn't there be some place on the site where I can find out when I need to renew? Isn't that something that's kind of basic for a membership-based organization?

All memberships expire December 31. I just checked the membership list and I do not see your renewal.

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. When I joined, it was in the middle of the year. Was my membership fee pro-rated, or did I pay a full year's membership fee for less (or more) than a year's membership?

...and shouldn't I have known about this before now?

Jeremy Crowhurst wrote:

Ken Crippen wrote:

Jeremy Crowhurst wrote: Honestly, Ken, I don't know if I'm a member. I don't remember when I joined (it sure as hell wasn't October 11, 2014, as it says on the "members" link in the top right corner), so I don't know when my membership expires (or expired). I got the mass email in January saying "hey, everybody please remember to renew", but that's it. (Well, in fairness I also get the emails from Andy every couple of weeks trying to sell me books and DVDs....)

The old forum at least had that thing by your name that said if you were a member or not. Shouldn't there be some place on the site where I can find out when I need to renew? Isn't that something that's kind of basic for a membership-based organization?

All memberships expire December 31. I just checked the membership list and I do not see your renewal.

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. When I joined, it was in the middle of the year. Was my membership fee pro-rated, or did I pay a full year's membership fee for less (or more) than a year's membership?

...and shouldn't I have known about this before now?

When you send in your membership mid-year, you are sent the back issues for the year so that you still get the full year of the magazine and you do not have interruption from the previous year. However, if it is late enough in the year, your membership extends to December 31 of the following year. Either way, you still get a minimum of a full-year of Coffin Corner. If that did not happen, PM me and I can look into it for you.

Ken Crippen » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:01 pm
"...However, the hard copies I have now fill a full filing cabinet, so space can be an issue for some."

The word "space" brought to mind a couple of interesting photos posted by Mike Moran a month-or-so ago. The photos showed just two of his bookcases filled from port to starboard with books. The focus of the thread was a potential PFRA project to create a bibliography that could serve the football-oriented public. Among those I recall offering both ideas and help were Mike together with John Max, John Grasso, Ralph, Tod and a number of others who I hope will forgive my failure to list them.
Perhaps now, with vigorous and positive-thinking leadership, this project can be considered seriously since it could not only serve but, in print, become a source of income for the Association.

Would it serve the organization to offer a subscription to either a digital or physical version to non-members?

Absolutely. I publish the newsletter for another organization that I'm a member of. On our membership renewal form there's a choice for the individual to select whether they'd prefer to receive a digital "paperless" version of the newsletter (and please provide a valid email address) or one in the mail. Please check one. If they don't check, they don't get a newsletter. Probably about 40% of our members go with the digital version.

Veeshik_ya wrote:... with all due respect this was absolutely not what I was saying. Making money is not the goal I had in mind. Expanding the PFRA and eliminating some of its dysfunctional characteristics is what I'm after.

And I abhor fantasy football.

(I agree with your thoughts about statistics, but that's another topic)

My mistake. I see that Jeremy was making the very valid point about fantasy and that SABR (and football sites he mentioned) draw from that. I apparently tied you in because of your SABR mention.

Regardless, point was 'us' being compared to SABR, at all. There's major differences, for one if someone in baseball creates a new stat (or presents stats in a different way) for fantasy baseball, it'll likely apply to real baseball as well. So the interest is greatly widened, drawing from multiple interests. Or the other way, comes up with a stat for baseball and the fantasy baseball crowd will jump on it and apply it to fantasy, again a significantly large amount of people would be interested in it.

Football isn't like that, so if a PFRA member created a new fantasy football stat, it would have no relevance to real football. So only fantasy football people - and people that don't understand real football - would care. If someone creates a new stat for football it'll still likely have no relevance to on the field real football, ha. (Not that people shouldn't try, always interested to read new things that people come up with, but as much as some people want them to be, stats just aren't as meaningful in football.) Of course that same new stat for football then wouldn't apply to fantasy football and you wouldn't bring those people in. Which the fantasy aspect, along with statistics, is a HUGE part of SABR. In football stats aren't as meaningful, and by relation in the PFRA, 'we' won't have what SABR does unless we sold out for fantasy football/stats, which I don't think many here would want to do.

From past posts of yours I believe you agree. Since while not exactly the same, we share similar viewpoints on football statistics.

Even some of the popular 'stats' or 'ratings' that people have come up have no real application to football. I sincerely doubt McDaniels went up to Brady during SB warm-ups and said "remember, the key to this game is your DYAR." I didn't see Pete explain the loss by saying "it all came down to DVOA." Chip Kelly hasn't been going around saying "the reason we missed the playoffs is because we didn't have any players over 14 AV" ... and so on.

Since you expanded on it I do get your own comparison to SABR though, how the information is presented, but they have members only also. Though I'd agree that the PFRA can definitely make both the free and members only information/materials more presentable, though there's a lot there if you spend the time to look for it.

I don't agree with the secret "private messages" point though, that's just a byproduct of how a lot of people function - more inclined to respond to a direct message as opposed to search through a forum to answer. I've personally found in my years as a PFRA member that any time I PM or e-mail another member asking for information or materials that it's been sent to me (talking about a large number of times this has happened) ... There's only two times I've asked for something and didn't get it, one no response for whatever reason, and one time was told the member would post it on the forum for everyone but I think the guy just forgot and I didn't care to bug him about it since it wasn't overly important and was just more for my interest. Goes the other way also, I've been asked for a number of things, copies, or just opinion on numerous topics off the forums (via e-mail, PM) and I've sent what I had (or thought) immediately all but one time - when I think the guy literally wanted me to copy every page of a book, I offered to do a couple pages or just type up what exact information he was looking for but never heard back after I suggested that so oh well.

Long story short, you can get the information if you ask for it. How you go about that probably matters some but there's plenty of people who I would assume aren't fans of mine, but when I ask for something they send it, and vice versa. Which is probably more about respect.

Reaser...you make several valid points but I just want to clarify that my observations about how the organization functions and suggestions for change are not really the result of any negative experiences I've had personally. They are just the result of things I've observed, and are truly framed by a desire to see good things happen to the PFRA.

And yes, we do seem to share many of the same views on stats.

I appreciate you taking the time to write such a long, thoughtful post.

Jeremy Crowhurst wrote:That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. When I joined, it was in the middle of the year. Was my membership fee pro-rated, or did I pay a full year's membership fee for less (or more) than a year's membership?

I get why they went to a once a year renewal setup, it's easier.

Though I think you ended up with less, assuming being a member is about more than just getting the CC? Since if you joined in the middle of the year you would have only got (roughly) six months of the members only section, correct?

Regardless, I think I renewed twice in one year once, and I'm positive I renewed February of last year but now I'm wondering if I'm not a member either? Though I still have access to the members only section, but evidently my CC subscription was cancelled 2/3rds of the way through last year, for whatever reason?

Reaser wrote:

Jeremy Crowhurst wrote:That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. When I joined, it was in the middle of the year. Was my membership fee pro-rated, or did I pay a full year's membership fee for less (or more) than a year's membership?

I get why they went to a once a year renewal setup, it's easier.

Though I think you ended up with less, assuming being a member is about more than just getting the CC? Since if you joined in the middle of the year you would have only got (roughly) six months of the members only section, correct?

Regardless, I think I renewed twice in one year once, and I'm positive I renewed February of last year but now I'm wondering if I'm not a member either? Though I still have access to the members only section, but evidently my CC subscription was cancelled 2/3rds of the way through last year, for whatever reason?

It all worked out, they topped me up rather than shorted me. Turns out I confused when I joined the forum with when I actually coughed up some coin - I joined on Dec. 24th of 2013, so I got an extra week for free!

Jeremy Crowhurst wrote:so I got an extra week for free!

Good deal.