Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

MIKEBENNIDICT wrote:Don't know if it's the worst but in the 60's The Packers not surprisingly beat The Bears more times then lost and one bad loos was a 1962 game where The Pack beat them 49-0.

I can't imagine how enraged Halas must have been after that loss.

Prior to the 1964 NFL Championship and Super Bowl III, the 1962 Colts took a 57-0 beating from that same Halas squad in Week 11, which presumably qualified as their worst-ever game. That probably greased the skids a little more for Weeb Ewbank, who was canned after the season.

BD Sullivan wrote:

MIKEBENNIDICT wrote:Don't know if it's the worst but in the 60's The Packers not surprisingly beat The Bears more times then lost and one bad loos was a 1962 game where The Pack beat them 49-0.

I can't imagine how enraged Halas must have been after that loss.

Prior to the 1964 NFL Championship and Super Bowl III, the 1962 Colts took a 57-0 beating from that same Halas squad in Week 11, which presumably qualified as their worst-ever game. That probably greased the skids a little more for Weeb Ewbank, who was canned after the season.

Baltimore got some revenge on the Bears in 1964, beating them 52 to 0. Maybe that was the Bears worst beating.

Cleveland had their worst team of the 60's in 1967. They not only got slaughtered by Green Bay and Dallas, but lost to the Giants after beating them 6 times in a row, and lost to a 5-7-2 Detroit team, 31 to 14, The Giants and Detroit losses were both on the road. Cleveland's only home loss that year was in the opener against Dallas.

The Browns also lost in the old runnerup bowl to the Rams, 30 to 6.

That was the year that the Giants started the West Coast Offense according to Fran Tarkenton.

7DnBrnc53 wrote:

Cleveland had their worst team of the 60's in 1967. They not only got slaughtered by Green Bay and Dallas, but lost to the Giants after beating them 6 times in a row, and lost to a 5-7-2 Detroit team, 31 to 14, The Giants and Detroit losses were both on the road. Cleveland's only home loss that year was in the opener against Dallas.

The Browns also lost in the old runnerup bowl to the Rams, 30 to 6.

That was the year that the Giants started the West Coast Offense according to Fran Tarkenton.

Don't know about that (Giants starting the West Coast Offense), but the Giants did have quite an offense in 1967. With Tarkenton at quarterback and receivers like Homer Jones, Aaron Thomas. and Joe Morrison, and with backs Ernie Koy (over 700 yards rushing and 4.8 yards per rush) and Tucker Frederickson, the Giants could really move the ball and could score from anywhere on the field. Even Vince Lombardi praised the Giants offense after their game.

Vince didn't praise the defense though, and the fact that the Pack scored 38 points in the 2nd half of their game could justify that. The New York Giants did not have a great defense in 1967, but they were an improvement over the previous year when they had one of the worst in pro football history.

There was a lot of personnel changes in the Giants starting lineup that year, with 9 players filling different positions on the defense alone. Three were rookies (RLB Ken Avery, RDT Bob Lurtsema, and LS Scott Eaton) who did well IMO.

Anyway, The Giants defense was improved, but still a far cry from the defenses of teams like Green Bay, Dallas, and the Los Angeles Rams.

Of course, the big addition to the New York Giants in 1967 was the addition of quarterback Fran Tarkenton. There were other additions that helped too, like Vince Costello from Cleveland, who at 35 had a very good year at middle linebacker for the Giants. I would say that Costello in 1967 gave the New York Giants their best play at that position since the days of Sam Huff. Vince Costello was one of the reasons for the Giants defensive improvement in 1967. I know that he got at least one game ball that year for the Giants, maybe two.

Bob Lurtsema played some minor league football in 1966 and was on Baltimore's taxi squad that year. He was considered a rookie at right defensive tackle in 1967, and I think he did well for New York.

Spider Lockhart was moved from left cornerback to free safety in 1967, and this was probably a good move. Lockhart became one of the better safeties in the league. Rookie Scott Eaton took over at left cornerback and was good enough to start there for about four seasons.

I think that Jim Moran played well at left defensive tackle in 1967 until breaking his leg in the Giants tenth game against Pittsburgh. Veteran Jim Colvin took Moran's place for the rest of that season. Colvin had been a starter for Dallas in previous years.

Rookie Ken Avery played right linebacker in 1967 and seemed to make a lot of the tackles for New York. He also made a key play in the Cleveland game blocking a Gary Collins punt that turned into 7 points for the Giants. I believe that it was the first punt ever blocked on Collins after being Cleveland's punter for about five seasons. New York won that game by 4 points.

The offensive line played much better than the year before. New York quarterbacks were sacked over 60 times in 1966 compared with 37 in 1967. Second year tackles Young and Harper were more experienced in 1967, and that must have helped. It also no doubt helped that the elusive Tarkenton could dodge pass rushers much of the time. Having Tucker Frederickson back at fullback in 1967 for 10 games probably helped as well. Tucker was known as an excellent blocker. Center Greg Larson and guards Pete Case and Darrell Dess also did good jobs.

I am sure that there were other things that helped improve the New York Giants in 1967, but I can't think of them right now.

BTW, the Giants worst loss in 1967 was the 48 to 21 home loss to Green Bay. Their best game was probably a 44 to 7 rout of Philadelphia.

Saban wrote:I saw that game. In the Packer game, the Browns had a lot of turnovers to go along with Travis' kickoff returns.

In the Dallas playoff, Dallas simply outplayed the Browns. Cleveland could not do much on offense, and the Browns defense could not seem to stop the Cowboys. Both games were on the road and Cleveland was not a very good road team in 1967. Cleveland played Dallas tougher in the opener losing 21 to 14 in Cleveland. It was Cleveland's first ever home loss to the Cowboys.

In my humble opinion, Cleveland had their worst team of the 60's in 1967. They not only got slaughtered by Green Bay and Dallas, but lost to the Giants after beating them 6 times in a row, and lost to a 5-7-2 Detroit team, 31 to 14, The Giants and Detroit losses were both on the road. Cleveland's only home loss that year was in the opener against Dallas.

The Browns also lost in the old runnerup bowl to the Rams, 30 to 6.

To try to explain what happened to the Cleveland Browns in 1967, here goes:

To start with, 5 Browns tried a collective holdout that year. Never a good sign. Two of them, LB Sidney Williams and T John Brown were traded. The other three, DB Mike Howell, RB Leroy Kelly, and G John Wooten ended up signing.

A hangover to the very disappointing end to the 1966 season when Cleveland had one of their best teams of that decade, only to miss the playoffs due to a bad schedule (played Green Bay in their only game against a Western Conference team and played Dallas on Thanksgiving), some bad luck, and the sudden rise of the Dallas Cowboys. Gary Collins called the 1966 team the best that he played on, even better than the 1964 championship team.

Frank Ryan had his poorest season. Frank's passing numbers were off causing receivers Warfield and Collins' numbers to be off. Ryan didn't run as often or as good in 1967, probably due to injures and/or whatever. He did not have his usual mobility and was sacked 41 times that year, which was quite a bit more than usual.

Maybe the offensive line wasn't blocking as well as usual, but I don't know about that. Right tackle John Brown was traded, but Monte Clark was the usual starter at right tackle. Second year man Fred Hoaglin took over at center for John Morrow, who was taken in the expansion draft. Morrow had suffered a broken leg the year before and I think was still having trouble with his leg.

Gary Collins wasn't as good as usual in his punting. Collins had been one of the best punters in the league, but his average distance fell off in 1967 and he had punts blocked that year for the first time in his pro career.

Carl Ward was a very fast back and returned a kickoff for a TD against Washington, but fumbled a couple of kickoffs at two of the very worst times. One was against the Giants which turned into an easy 6 points for New York (the Giants won the game by 4 points), and the other fumbled kickoff was against the Green Bay Packers which turned into an easy 6 for the Pack. That game, of course, was the 55 to 7 rout at the hands of Green Bay.

Cleveland was not a very good road team that year, which may indicate that they were not in the best of shape. The Browns were known for having easy training camps. They had loads of talent, especially on offense, and a brilliant head coach in Blanton Collier and a wonderful coaching staff. Collier did not push his team like a say....Vince Lombardi. He felt that the players were adults and treated them as such, letting it be up to them to get into proper condition. Maybe some of the players took advantage of that in 1967.

Cleveland only lost one home game in 1967, the opener against Dallas (their first home loss ever to the Cowboys). So, they were still tough at home.

Being a Cleveland fan, I kept asking myself over and over that year: what the heck is wrong with the Cleveland Browns? Just the year before they seemed like a very good team, nearly beating the mighty Packers in one game and losing by one point, 21 to 20, after leading most of the game. One point away from defeating arguably the greatest of all the Green Bay teams in 1966, and losing 55 to 7 to the Pack in 1967. What a difference a year makes.

In 1967, the Browns came close to losing their home game against the Cardinals in October and their two November home games:

*Against St. Louis, they led 17-16 with less than five minutes and facing a third and two. Frank Ryan, not known for his mobility, escaped a sack and got the first down, with Groza adding a FG.

*Against Minnesota, they trailed 10-7 with 3:30 left. Minnesota had the ball at midfield, but the Browns forced a fumble. They drove down the field and Leroy Kelly scored with 28 seconds left.

*Against Washington, Sonny Jurgensen threw for 418 yards and got the ball down to the Cleveland 25 with 48 seconds left and the Browns leading 42-37. Three tries went nowhere and then he was sacked by Bill Glass.

BD Sullivan wrote:In 1967, the Browns came close to losing their home game against the Cardinals in October and their two November home games:

*Against St. Louis, they led 17-16 with less than five minutes and facing a third and two. Frank Ryan, not known for his mobility, escaped a sack and got the first down, with Groza adding a FG.

*Against Minnesota, they trailed 10-7 with 3:30 left. Minnesota had the ball at midfield, but the Browns forced a fumble. They drove down the field and Leroy Kelly scored with 28 seconds left.

*Against Washington, Sonny Jurgensen threw for 418 yards and got the ball down to the Cleveland 25 with 48 seconds left and the Browns leading 42-37. Three tries went nowhere and then he was sacked by Bill Glass.

Here is what I think about those three games in Cleveland, for what it is worth:

St. Louis - The Cardinals always gave Cleveland a tough time in Cleveland in those days. They were always up for the Browns in their first games of those years (1964-69). Cleveland was a little lucky to win that one in 1967.

Minnesota - The Browns were vocal after their 55 to 7 loss to Green Bay and said some things that were bulletin board material for the Vikings. Hence, the Vikings came into Cleveland very high for that game. Minnesota was a better team than their record indicated and were getting close to becoming a dynasty. It turned out to be a tough, nasty game, and the Browns were fortunate to get the win.

Washington - Cleveland had beaten Washington about 8 or 9 times in a row and last lost to the Redskins in 1962. Might have had a hard time getting up for that game. Besides, they had their next game against the Giants who had beaten Cleveland in New York, so they may have been looking ahead. Cleveland's defense did play tough against the Giants the following week in Cleveland as the Browns won, 24 to 14.

Yes, Cleveland did have some close games at home in 1967, but were never blown out, as they were on the road. Their lone home loss was a 21 to 14 loss to Dallas in the opener.

BTW, I forgot to mention that Cleveland missed middle linebacker Vince Costello, who was traded to the Giants in the preseason. Middle linebacker became a problem area for the Browns from 1967 on for some years. Costello played well for New York in 1967 even though he was 35 years old. He was a key in the Giants 38 to 34 upset win over Cleveland that year. Too bad that Art had traded away Mike Lucci.

They also missed tight end Milt Morin, who missed much of the 1967 season due to injury. Ralph "Catfish" Smith was an adequate replacement, but Morin was a rising star.

Saban wrote:

BD Sullivan wrote:In 1967, the Browns came close to losing their home game against the Cardinals in October and their two November home games:

*Against St. Louis, they led 17-16 with less than five minutes and facing a third and two. Frank Ryan, not known for his mobility, escaped a sack and got the first down, with Groza adding a FG.

*Against Minnesota, they trailed 10-7 with 3:30 left. Minnesota had the ball at midfield, but the Browns forced a fumble. They drove down the field and Leroy Kelly scored with 28 seconds left.

*Against Washington, Sonny Jurgensen threw for 418 yards and got the ball down to the Cleveland 25 with 48 seconds left and the Browns leading 42-37. Three tries went nowhere and then he was sacked by Bill Glass.

Here is what I think about those three games in Cleveland, for what it is worth:

St. Louis - The Cardinals always gave Cleveland a tough time in Cleveland in those days. They were always up for the Browns in their first games of those years (1964-69). Cleveland was a little lucky to win that one in 1967.

Minnesota - The Browns were vocal after their 55 to 7 loss to Green Bay and said some things that were bulletin board material for the Vikings. Hence, the Vikings came into Cleveland very high for that game. Minnesota was a better team than their record indicated and were getting close to becoming a dynasty. It turned out to be a tough, nasty game, and the Browns were fortunate to get the win.

Washington - Cleveland had beaten Washington about 8 or 9 times in a row and last lost to the Redskins in 1962. Might have had a hard time getting up for that game. Besides, they had their next game against the Giants who had beaten Cleveland in New York, so they may have been looking ahead. Cleveland's defense did play tough against the Giants the following week in Cleveland as the Browns won, 24 to 14.

Yes, Cleveland did have some close games at home in 1967, but were never blown out, as they were on the road. Their lone home loss was a 21 to 14 loss to Dallas in the opener.

BTW, I forgot to mention that Cleveland missed middle linebacker Vince Costello, who was traded to the Giants in the preseason. Middle linebacker became a problem area for the Browns from 1967 on for some years. Costello played well for New York in 1967 even though he was 35 years old. He was a key in the Giants 38 to 34 upset win over Cleveland that year. Too bad that Art had traded away Mike Lucci.

They also missed tight end Milt Morin, who missed much of the 1967 season due to injury. Ralph "Catfish" Smith was an adequate replacement, but Morin was a rising star.

Another thing concerning the 1967 Cleveland Browns:

I forgot that flanker Gary Collins missed the game against the Detroit Lions that year, won by Detroit 31 to 14. That, along with the continued absence of tight end Milt Morin left Cleveland with only one of their starting receivers, Paul Warfield. Warfield was no doubt double covered through most or all of that game with Morin and Collins missing.

Rookie Eppie Barney took Collins' place at flanker against Detroit and Catfish Smith continued to take Morin's place at tight end. Barney caught 1 pass for a minus 3 yards that day, if memory serves and Smith caught a couple of passes.

So, Cleveland's passing attack was very anemic that day, and Cleveland had to depend on running backs Kelly and Green for most of their offense that day. Kelly and Green ran well that day, but Detroit also ran well that day and passed much better than the Browns did.

I always thought that Cleveland was just suffering one of their post Dallas games let downs, and that could be part of it, but losing their bread and butter receiver in Collins had to hurt, and they probably still missed Milt Morin.

So, it was another lousy day for Cleveland that day in Detroit in 1967, but at least the Browns had an excuse. That game left Cleveland at 0 and 2 after losses to Dallas and Detroit.

The 1966 Atlanta Falcons lost to the Green Bay Packers, 56 to 3. Talk about a mismatch; one of the worst expansion teams ever against one of the greatest Green Bay teams.

The amazing thing is that the Falcons ended up winning three games that year. One win was helped by Minnesota head coach Van Brocklin, who kept quarterback Fran Tarkenton on the bench for some reason. Maybe Atlanta rewarded Van Brocklin a couple of years later when they hired him as their head coach.