Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

I think that the early Cleveland Browns team had a lot of influence on the 1960's AFL. To start with, two of the head coaches, Lou Rymkus and Lou Saban, were players on the original Cleveland Browns in 1946. Maybe a good part of the reason that they were hired was because of the success of the Browns in the new AAFC from 1946 through 1949.

Rymkus led the Houston Oilers to the first AFL championship in 1960. Lou Saban ended up leading the Buffalo Bills to AFL titles in 1964 and 1965. Mac Speedie, another original Cleveland Brown, was an assistant coach at Houston in 1960 and a few years later was head coach of the Denver Broncos for about a couple of years.

Tom Catlin, who played linebacker for the Browns during the 1950's was an assistant coach for the Dallas Texans in 1960. Catlin was later a long time assistant to Chuck Knox in Buffalo and Seattle.

Darrell Brewster was an assistant coach at Kansas City for a few years including their Super Bowl winning year in 1969. Brewster was an end for Cleveland during the 1950's.

Joe Spencer, who was a tackle for Cleveland in 1949 was an assistant coach at Houston (1961-65) and for the Jets from 1968 through 1970.

Chuck Noll was an assistant coach for the LA/San Diego Chargers during the early 1960's. Noll played for Cleveland from 1953 through 1959. Noll later was the head coach of the Steelers team that won 4 Super Bowls during the 1970's.

Weeb Ewbank, an assistant coach for Cleveland from 1949 through 1953, was the head coach of the New York Jets team that won Super Bowl III.

Original Cleveland Brown George Young (defensive end) was an umpire for nearly the entire 10 years of the AFL (1960-69). In 1969, Young died from a brain tumor, which prevented him from completing the full ten years. George Young was the umpire in the first AFL championship game between Houston and the Los Angeles Chargers. Young was also the umpire in the first Super Bowl between the Green Bay Packers and the Kansas City Chiefs.

Of course, Paul Brown was the owner and head coach of the Cincinnati Bengals starting in 1968.

There could be other coaches and office people that were with Cleveland during the 1940's and 1950's, but those are ones that I know about.

by Saban » Fri Mar 04, 2016 4:56 am
"...There could be other coaches and office people that were with Cleveland during the 1940's and 1950's, but those are ones that I know about."
Saban
Posts: 214

What an OUTSTANDING series of pages regarding what was truly a love and understanding of a team!
(Only Reaser even comes close to such a display.)
If the current Browns were not such a dumpy organization, they could be putting forth numerous attempts to bring
favorable attention to the team rather than the trash that surrounds it now.
Perhaps they will save some money under the salary cap and hire Saban to promote the Browns as they were and should be?
It sure would be nice to see.
The only type of in-depth analyses of teams we have ever seen other than this was from our former posters, tj troup
and Ange Coniglio. Gee! How they are missed...

Thank you sir. Very nice to hear things like that.

The 1946 Cleveland Browns were very well organized in 1946, but so were their opponents, the New York Yankees and the San Francisco 49ers. I would like to focus on the 49ers here because they finished 2nd to the Cleveland Browns in all 4 years that the All-America Conference (AAFC) was in operation (1946-49).

The 49ers in 1946 started out with a lot of good players, some of whom were good players in the NFL before playing in the AAFC. Guard/defensive guard Bruno Banducci, tackle John Wouldenberg, fullback/linebacker Norm Standlee, HB/DB Len Eshmont, QB/HB/DB/P Parker Hall, C/LB Dutch Elston, G/LB Dick Bassi, C/LB Gerry Conlee, E Ron Titchenal, HB/DB Ned Matthews, T John Kuzman, E Bill Fisk and maybe a couple of others.

You probably could have filled a starting team of veterans with those players, and Banducci, Woudenberg, and Standlee were great players. Eshmont was a good one too, and the 49ers even had an award named after him. With the limited substitution, most of those players could and did play on both sides of the line.

The 49ers also had some very good rookies in 1946 although many had played football in the service. How about QB Frankie Albert, HB John "Strike" Strzykalski, E Alyn Beals, G/DG Visco Grgich, HB/K Joe Vetrano, E Nick Susoeff, T Bob Bryant, etc.

So, the 1946 49ers had a very good mix of veterans and rookies and a very talented team. They also had a head coach that was to prove to be one of the better coaches in both the AAFC and later in the NFL (Buck Shaw). Frankie Albert was a very good quarterback and is rightly in the HOVG. Standlee was the best fullback in the league other than Marion Motley, and John Strzykalski was one of the best running backs in the AAFC (good in 1950 in the NFL too). Alyn Beals was one of the best pass receivers in the league and Joe Vetrano was the best kicker in the AAFC outside of Lou Groza.

Outside of the Cleveland Browns, the San Francisco 49ers of the 4 year AAFC was probably the best non NFL team in history. A very formidable team.

Saban wrote:The 1946 Cleveland Browns were very well organized in 1946, but so were their opponents, the New York Yankees and the San Francisco 49ers. I would like to focus on the 49ers here because they finished 2nd to the Cleveland Browns in all 4 years that the All-America Conference (AAFC) was in operation (1946-49).

The 49ers in 1946 started out with a lot of good players, some of whom were good players in the NFL before playing in the AAFC. Guard/defensive guard Bruno Banducci, tackle John Wouldenberg, fullback/linebacker Norm Standlee, HB/DB Len Eshmont, QB/HB/DB/P Parker Hall, C/LB Dutch Elston, G/LB Dick Bassi, C/LB Gerry Conlee, E Ron Titchenal, HB/DB Ned Matthews, T John Kuzman, E Bill Fisk and maybe a couple of others.

You probably could have filled a starting team of veterans with those players, and Banducci, Woudenberg, and Standlee were great players. Eshmont was a good one too, and the 49ers even had an award named after him. With the limited substitution, most of those players could and did play on both sides of the line.

The 49ers also had some very good rookies in 1946 although many had played football in the service. How about QB Frankie Albert, HB John "Strike" Strzykalski, E Alyn Beals, G/DG Visco Grgich, HB/K Joe Vetrano, E Nick Susoeff, T Bob Bryant, etc.

So, the 1946 49ers had a very good mix of veterans and rookies and a very talented team. They also had a head coach that was to prove to be one of the better coaches in both the AAFC and later in the NFL (Buck Shaw). Frankie Albert was a very good quarterback and is rightly in the HOVG. Standlee was the best fullback in the league other than Marion Motley, and John Strzykalski was one of the best running backs in the AAFC (good in 1950 in the NFL too). Alyn Beals was one of the best pass receivers in the league and Joe Vetrano was the best kicker in the AAFC outside of Lou Groza.

Outside of the Cleveland Browns, the San Francisco 49ers of the 4 year AAFC was probably the best non NFL team in history. A very formidable team.

The 1946 San Francisco 49ers were formed a lot like the Cleveland Browns. Paul Brown got a lot of his players from the midwest with many from Ohio State and the Great Lakes service teams where he had coached and also players that played against him that he remembered.

The 49ers got 7 players that played for 49ers coach Buck Shaw at Santa Clara college and service teams like St. Mary's where Shaw coached, and mostly the west coast, like QB Frankie Albert and FB Norm Standlee who both played on an undefeated Stanford team. Albert and Standlee were both first round draft choices of the Chicago Bears in consecutive years. Standlee played on the Bears championship team in 1941 and was 4th in the NFL in rushing that year averaging over 5 yards per rush. Both Standlee and Albert spent some time in the military service before signing with the 49ers in 1946.

The 49ers had a great starting backfield in 1946 with Albert as QB, Standlee at FB, John Strzykalski and Len Eshmont as the 2 halfbacks. The 49ers also had a great end in Alyn Beals who led the AAFC in scoring and TD's over the league's 4 seasons. Beals was 2nd to only Cleveland's Mac Speedie in total catches over the 4 year span. Alyn Beals also co-led the AAFC in catches in 1946 with 40 receptions which was equal to Dante Lavelli, who also caught 40.

The 49ers had a veteran starting lineup with only QB Albert and HB Strzykalski being the only rookies listed as starters, although rookie Beals must have gotten a lot of playing time. The 49ers were good enough to hand the Cleveland Browns their first loss ever with a 34 to 20 win in the 7th game of the 1946 season. Over the 4 year span, Cleveland did beat the 49ers more than the other way around, but the games were usually close and tough. It was quite a rivalry.

The New York Yankees were really a better team than the 49ers during the first 2 years of the AAFC, but the 49ers were a better team over the league's 4 years, finishing 2nd to the Cleveland Browns all 4 years. The record for San Francisco over those 4 years was 38 wins, 14 losses, and 2 ties, which is better than 70 per cent of their games in the win column.

A bit off-subject but may as well post it here instead of starting new thread - what was the point in the AAFC even having divisions? Everyone played everyone twice anyway. Have it one single body, only not have four teams in like in the final year when it was down to just seven teams. Simply have top-2 square off. That way a much more intriguing matchup in '48 would have taken place (Clev vs SF instead of 7-7 Buf).

You could say the same for the 1960's AFL. In 1963, San Diego and Oakland had the 2 best records in the league, but they played in the same division. San Diego vs Oakland probably would have been a better game than San Diego vs Boston (51 to 10).

Because it worked for the NFL having an east-west championship game, the AAFC and the 1960's AFL probably thought it was a good idea too.

Saban wrote:

Saban wrote:The 1946 Cleveland Browns were very well organized in 1946, but so were their opponents, the New York Yankees and the San Francisco 49ers. I would like to focus on the 49ers here because they finished 2nd to the Cleveland Browns in all 4 years that the All-America Conference (AAFC) was in operation (1946-49).

The 49ers in 1946 started out with a lot of good players, some of whom were good players in the NFL before playing in the AAFC. Guard/defensive guard Bruno Banducci, tackle John Wouldenberg, fullback/linebacker Norm Standlee, HB/DB Len Eshmont, QB/HB/DB/P Parker Hall, C/LB Dutch Elston, G/LB Dick Bassi, C/LB Gerry Conlee, E Ron Titchenal, HB/DB Ned Matthews, T John Kuzman, E Bill Fisk and maybe a couple of others.

You probably could have filled a starting team of veterans with those players, and Banducci, Woudenberg, and Standlee were great players. Eshmont was a good one too, and the 49ers even had an award named after him. With the limited substitution, most of those players could and did play on both sides of the line.

The 49ers also had some very good rookies in 1946 although many had played football in the service. How about QB Frankie Albert, HB John "Strike" Strzykalski, E Alyn Beals, G/DG Visco Grgich, HB/K Joe Vetrano, E Nick Susoeff, T Bob Bryant, etc.

So, the 1946 49ers had a very good mix of veterans and rookies and a very talented team. They also had a head coach that was to prove to be one of the better coaches in both the AAFC and later in the NFL (Buck Shaw). Frankie Albert was a very good quarterback and is rightly in the HOVG. Standlee was the best fullback in the league other than Marion Motley, and John Strzykalski was one of the best running backs in the AAFC (good in 1950 in the NFL too). Alyn Beals was one of the best pass receivers in the league and Joe Vetrano was the best kicker in the AAFC outside of Lou Groza.

Outside of the Cleveland Browns, the San Francisco 49ers of the 4 year AAFC was probably the best non NFL team in history. A very formidable team.

The 1946 San Francisco 49ers were formed a lot like the Cleveland Browns. Paul Brown got a lot of his players from the midwest with many from Ohio State and the Great Lakes service teams where he had coached and also players that played against him that he remembered.

The 49ers got 7 players that played for 49ers coach Buck Shaw at Santa Clara college and service teams like St. Mary's where Shaw coached, and mostly the west coast, like QB Frankie Albert and FB Norm Standlee who both played on an undefeated Stanford team. Albert and Standlee were both first round draft choices of the Chicago Bears in consecutive years. Standlee played on the Bears championship team in 1941 and was 4th in the NFL in rushing that year averaging over 5 yards per rush. Both Standlee and Albert spent some time in the military service before signing with the 49ers in 1946.

The 49ers had a great starting backfield in 1946 with Albert as QB, Standlee at FB, John Strzykalski and Len Eshmont as the 2 halfbacks. The 49ers also had a great end in Alyn Beals who led the AAFC in scoring and TD's over the league's 4 seasons. Beals was 2nd to only Cleveland's Mac Speedie in total catches over the 4 year span. Alyn Beals also co-led the AAFC in catches in 1946 with 40 receptions which was equal to Dante Lavelli, who also caught 40.

The 49ers had a veteran starting lineup with only QB Albert and HB Strzykalski being the only rookies listed as starters, although rookie Beals must have gotten a lot of playing time. The 49ers were good enough to hand the Cleveland Browns their first loss ever with a 34 to 20 win in the 7th game of the 1946 season. Over the 4 year span, Cleveland did beat the 49ers more than the other way around, but the games were usually close and tough. It was quite a rivalry.

The New York Yankees were really a better team than the 49ers during the first 2 years of the AAFC, but the 49ers were a better team over the league's 4 years, finishing 2nd to the Cleveland Browns all 4 years. The record for San Francisco over those 4 years was 38 wins, 14 losses, and 2 ties, which is better than 70 per cent of their games in the win column.

Of all 9 years of Buck Shaw's 49er teams, the worst was in 1950. Their record was 3 wins and 9 losses for a last place tie in the NFL's Western Conference. It's true that the NFL teams were all up for the 49ers, as they were for the Cleveland Browns in 1950, but there is much more to the story than that. So, what happened?

Thirteen players from the 1949 San Francisco team were gone in 1950. Being that there was a 32 player limit in 1949, then 13 players are a big chunk of the team. Some of the players were key.

Two of their best defensive backs from the AAFC years, Eddie Carr and Len Eshmont were gone. Carr had 7 interceptions in both 1948 and 1949, even though Carr missed 5 games in 1949 (7 Ints. in 7 games for Eddie that year).

Len Eshmont was one of the greatest players to play for the 49ers during the AAFC years. Len was not only a great defensive player, but also was their starting left halfback all 4 years. Eshmont gained over 1180 yards during the 4 years and averaged over 5 yards per carry. The 1180 plus yards was pretty good when you consider that he shared the ball carrying load with Joe Perry, Norm Standlee, and John Strzykalski. Eshmont was a popular player on the team and as said before, has an award named for him.

Probably worse than that was the fact that the 49ers lost all but one of their tackles in 1950, and that included all of their starters. The tackles were John Woudenberg, one of the best tackles in the league, and former starters Bob Bryant and Bob Mike (Bryant was injured in 1949 and Bob Mike became a starter that year). Jack Carpenter was another tackle that was gone, and Carpenter had been a starter for Buffalo. Tackle Joe Morgan was also gone in 1950.

The 49ers knew that they were in trouble in 1950 and their first 3 draft choices were tackles that year (Leo Nomellini, Don Campora, and Ray Collins). The 49ers had 4 rookies manning their offensive and defensive lines at the tackle positions in 1950(Harley Dow at LT, Clay Matthews at RT, Don Campora at LDT, and Leo Nomellini at RDT).

Nomellini turned out to be a great one, but I imagine that Frankie Albert was running for his life much of the time with 2 rookie tackles on their offensive line. Both Albert and the 49ers great end, Alyn Beals, had very sub par years that year. With the inexperienced offensive line combined with the fact that the NFL teams were all up for them and probably put a big pass rush on the 49ers, added up to a tough year for the 49ers passing game.

To give an idea of how bad things got, the 49ers struggled to beat the Baltimore Colts, 17 to 14, and the 1950 Colts were one of the worst pro football teams in history. The 49ers slaughtered Baltimore twice in 1949. They were also lucky to beat the Detroit Lions by one point, 28 to 27, when Bobby Layne missed the extra point after Detroit's last touchdown. So, the 1950 49ers won 3 games in 1950, and were lucky to win 2 of them.

The 49ers also lost their backup quarterback, Bev Wallace, and their very good kicker, Joe Vetrano, and their starting left guard in 1948 and 1949, Don Clark. They also lost two ends, Ned Maloney and Nick Susoeff (Susoeff was their 2nd leading pass receiver in both 1948 and 1949), and backup center Tino Sabuco.

To make matters even worse, the 49ers could not trade with the NFL teams because no NFL team was about to help out one of the new teams from the AAFC with a trade. So 13 rookies made the 49er squad in 1950. In 1951, the 49ers improved enough to tie for 2nd place in the Western Conference with a 7-4-1 record, only a half game behind the NFL champion Los Angeles Rams, who had a regular season record of 8 wins and 4 losses.

Despite the terrible season in 1950, for the 9 seasons that Buck Shaw was head coach of the 49ers (1946-54), the 49ers record was 71 wins, 39 losses, and 4 ties. Not a bad overall record considering how bad their one season in 1950 was. They usually finished 2nd (6 times) or in third (twice) behind either Cleveland in the AAFC or Detroit in the NFL and once behind the Rams in 1951. I think that their 1951 through 1954 seasons in the NFL were more in line with what the 49ers did in the AAFC.

Made a couple of mistakes on the last 2 or 3 posts of mine. First of all, Buck Shaw did not coach at St. Mary's, a powerful service team, but he did get at least a couple of good players from there. Shaw did coach at the University of California in 1945.

The 49ers did not slaughter the Baltimore Colts in 1949, but did hand the Colts a couple of solid wins that year. It was in 1948 that the 49ers did beat the Colts, 56 to 14, and the Colts were better in 1948, losing to Buffalo in a playoff game for the Eastern Division of the AAFC.

The 49ers also beat the New York Yankees 2 of 3 games in 1949 including a win in a playoff game, but lost twice to a New York Yanks team in 1950 that had lost 6 of their best defensive players to the New York Giants. The 1949 Yankees and the 1950 Yanks were considered different franchises, but both teams had most of the same players (minus the 6 players that went to the Giants in 1950) and the same head coach (Red Strader).

Why the relevance of the 49ers to this thread? I think that the presence of the 49ers and the New York Yankees (at least for 2 years) shows that the Cleveland Browns did have some good competition in the AAFC. The league had 3 of the best coaches in Paul Brown, Ray Flaherty, and Buck Shaw and also had some good quarterbacks in Otto Graham, Frankie Albert, George Ratterman, and Y.A. Tittle. Also, some pretty good running backs in Marion Motley, Spec Sanders, Norm Standlee, John Strzykalski, Joe Perry, etc.

The Browns and Yankees had strong defensive teams. The Browns led the AAFC in least points allowed all 4 years of the league, and went on to lead the NFL 5 times in that department during the next 7 years, and was 2nd least twice in those years (by 3 points in 1950).

Sure, the AAFC had some weak teams, but so did the NFL. The Boston Yanks (later the New York Bulldogs) and the Detroit Lions were pathetic during those years, and the Green Bay Packers were on the verge of a great depression starting in 1948 that lasted until someone named Vince showed up there. It got so bad that the Packers let legendary coach Curly Lambeau go after the 1949 season.

Yes, the Cleveland Browns did dominate the All-America Conference for 4 years from 1946 through 1949, but they hardly ever had an easy time with the San Francisco 49ers or the New York Yankees (during the Yankees first 2 years).

The New York Yankees were really better than the San Francisco 49ers for the first 2 years of the All-America Conference (1946-47). They beat the 49ers twice in 1946 and twice in 1947 and played in the league championship game both years.

In 1948, the AAFC commissioner decided to make the top teams help out the weaker teams by giving them some players. So, the New York Yankees gave some players away (to the Chicago Rockets I think), and the Cleveland Browns gave some players, including Y.A. Tittle and starting left tackle Ernie Blandin, to the Baltimore Colts. I don't know if San Francisco gave any players away. This hurt the Yankees so much that they actually became a losing team in 1948.

Anyway, in 1946, the Yankees started out with some of the remaining players that had played for the NFL Brooklyn Dodgers during the early 1940's. This included 2 players that are in the Hall of Fame in tailback Ace Parker and tackle Bruiser Kinard. Also, there was back Frank Sinkwich, who was MVP in the NFL in 1944. Then there were All-Pro types end Perry Schwartz, end Bob Masterson, Fullback Pug Manders, and back Ray Hare. There were some others including Bruser Kinard's brother George (a guard).

Some of those players were probably a little past their primes, but the Yankees also filled their roster with some pretty good rookies about as good a job as the 49ers and maybe Cleveland in that respect. Probably the best of these was Spec Sanders, who was sensational as a runner and could throw the ball as well. The Yankees used the single wing formation and Ace Parker and Spec Sanders split time at the tailback position.

The Yankees got some good rookies to strengthen their line play with guys like tackles Nate Johnson, Harvey Johnson, and Derrell Palmer and ends Bruce Alford and Jack Russell and center Lou Sossamon. Their lines were so strong that I read someplace that the Yankees had 2 platoons on defense. Don't know exactly how that would work with the limited substitution, but they did have a very strong line, especially for a first year team.

A couple more good rookies were fullback Eddie Prokop and wingback Lowell Wagner. It was a very nice mix of rookies and veterans. The older vets probably helped the rookies develope and may have been like extra coaches on the field. Of course, head coach Ray Flaherty was one of the best in pro football and had previously led the Washington Redskins to two NFL championships.

So, the 1946 New York Yankees were a force to be reckoned with in the new AAFC. I thought that they would have been heavy favorites to win the AAFC title in 1946, but I guess that the Chicago Rockets were for some reason. That was a surprise to me because the Yankees started out with so many good experienced players and also had Flaherty as head coach.

The Yankees were to be very tough in the first couple of years of the new league, but there was this team from Podunk with a high school coach that would give them a lot of trouble.