Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Vainisi was a personnel man and Modell spent other people's money. Without Vainisi, Lombardi doesnt become a HC. Only Philly tried to reach out to him and every other owner was wary of Lombardi's bipolarism. Vainisi brought in HOF talent, was there with the opening of Lambeau field and even signed the teams first black player in Bob Mann. Like Kotal, he had an eye for talent but just needed the right HC to mold them. He died just before their first 60s championship.

JeffreyMiller wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 3:46 pm
I like Taylor too! Probably my number two AFL guy after Sestak. However, Sestak's career was too short so I have already accepted his fate. Taylor, on the other hand, has a good argument but suffers from Chief fatigue (Dawson, Bell, Thomas, Robinson, Buchannan, Lanier, etc), and it's only gonna compound when the current crop start retiring ...

Good points, Jeff. But if Cecil Isbell's career is considered to be long enough to make it this far, then Sestak's is too. (Or should be!)

conace21 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 6:18 pm

JeffreyMiller wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 3:46 pm
I like Taylor too! Probably my number two AFL guy after Sestak. However, Sestak's career was too short so I have already accepted his fate. Taylor, on the other hand, has a good argument but suffers from Chief fatigue (Dawson, Bell, Thomas, Robinson, Buchannan, Lanier, etc), and it's only gonna compound when the current crop start retiring ...

Good points, Jeff. But if Cecil Isbell's career is considered to be long enough to make it this far, then Sestak's is too. (Or should be!)

100% agreed with you on Sestak hes one of my top deserving afl seniors not in the hall

Brian wolf wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 4:16 pm Vainisi was a personnel man and Modell spent other people's money. Without Vainisi, Lombardi doesnt become a HC. Only Philly tried to reach out to him and every other owner was wary of Lombardi's bipolarism. Vainisi brought in HOF talent, was there with the opening of Lambeau field and even signed the teams first black player in Bob Mann. Like Kotal, he had an eye for talent but just needed the right HC to mold them. He died just before their first 60s championship.

agreed with you 100% BW i would rather have seen people like vainisi and kotal over certain owners like Adams and Modell if you know what i mean

readjack wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 11:00 am
I like the conversation around Doug Williams in Canton. Tough to define him as either a contributor or a senior, which clearly the Hall struggled with this year as he is in both. But there are two ways to look at his case. First is that he was the first Black QB to start and win a Super Bowl, a huge barrier to knock down and one that reverberates to this day. This might make him more of the "He got here first" type of innovator rather than the "He thought of something new" innovator, i.e. more Ralph Hay than George Halas. But that's fine with me. Yes, eventually *someone* would have been the first Black QB to win a Super Bowl, but he was the first and that matters.

Second, it's a make-up for what was clearly an interrupted Hall of Fame career. I don't think any owner would have basically chased his white franchise quarterback out of town, a guy who dragged a franchise from joke to NFC contender. Hugh Culverhouse tried to low-ball Williams, and Williams went to the USFL to get paid. He clearly was still good enough to play, as Super Bowl XXII showed. Now, it could also be said that if Culverhouse never chased him out, he might never have made it to Washington and a shot at a title, and without a title he's not in this conversation at all. That is true. But we don't know.

With regards to your first point, I think the Ralph Hay Pioneer Award is a more appropriate honor for Williams in this scenario. His milestone is notable, but I don't see how you separate him from Woody Stroke, Kenny Washington, Marlin Briscoe, or James "Shack" Harris.

With regards to your second point, I know you've made this argument on social media with regards to Kenny Washington: Enshrine him because the color ban prevented him establishing a Hall of Fame career from 1940-1944. I thought it was speculation then, but it's untrue in this case. Williams had not come close to establishing a HOF career in Tampa Bay. I think it's fair to say that he provided average quarterback play. When coupled with a top-5 defense, that was enough to get Tampa Bay (a team with a truly horrendous owner) into the playoffs three times. But it was not a HOF career that was being interrupted by Hugh Culverhouse's miserly ways.

If Williams had carved out a career similar to Joe Theismann or Phil Simms (who seem to be established HOVG-level quarterbacks), then perhaps being the first Black quarterback to to start a Super Bowl would be enough to nudge him over the edge. But, he didn't. Not even close. Doug Williams is in Canton - in the Super Bowl room, and as one of the founders of the Black College Football HOF (a separate room in the PFHOF), and I think those are the appropriate places for him.

conace21 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 1:25 pm
With regards to your first point, I think the Ralph Hay Pioneer Award is a more appropriate honor for Williams in this scenario. His milestone is notable, but I don't see how you separate him from Woody Stroke, Kenny Washington, Marlin Briscoe, or James "Shack" Harris.

With regards to your second point, I know you've made this argument on social media with regards to Kenny Washington: Enshrine him because the color ban prevented him establishing a Hall of Fame career from 1940-1944. I thought it was speculation then, but it's untrue in this case. Williams had not come close to establishing a HOF career in Tampa Bay. I think it's fair to say that he provided average quarterback play. When coupled with a top-5 defense, that was enough to get Tampa Bay (a team with a truly horrendous owner) into the playoffs three times. But it was not a HOF career that was being interrupted by Hugh Culverhouse's miserly ways.

If Williams had carved out a career similar to Joe Theismann or Phil Simms (who seem to be established HOVG-level quarterbacks), then perhaps being the first Black quarterback to to start a Super Bowl would be enough to nudge him over the edge. But, he didn't. Not even close. Doug Williams is in Canton - in the Super Bowl room, and as one of the founders of the Black College Football HOF (a separate room in the PFHOF), and I think those are the appropriate places for him.

Hi Adam! All fair points. On the first, I would, as you know, elect Kenny Washington in a nano-second, and I would be great with Woody Strode too.

On the second point, my phrase "what was clearly an interrupted Hall of Fame career" is too absolute for where he was after five years in Tampa. I agree. My point is that he was still ascending and he was doing this in a tough situation with modest offensive talent around him. He easily could have had a Simms-level career. In fact, his first five years vs. some of his peers who are on similar levels — Archie, Plunkett, Simms, Theismann — shows similarities, and a lead on Simms, I would say, considering Simms basically had no season 4 or 5:

YARDS
Top 5: Archie/Plunkett x1
Top 10: Plunkett x4, Williams x3, Archie x1, Simms/Theismann x0

TDs
Top 5: Plunkett x2, Archie x1
Top 10: Plunkett x2, Williams x2, Archie x1, Simms/Theismann x0

Rating
n/a

COMBINED
#1: none
T5: Plunkett x3, Archie x2
T10: Plunkett x6, Williams x5, Archie x2, Simms/Theismann x0

So you're right: you can't say Williams was "clearly" on a PFHOF track. That's off base. But he was steady, he was winning, he had early statistical consistency and he had a legendary moment that was fairly tricky to pull off considering how little he was playing before the playoffs.

Too much emphasis on Williams is one game. He was bad the first 2 playoff games. Hit 40% of his passes. Washington won because of Greens punt return TD in the first game and a dropped pass by Nelson that may have been a TD in the second game. Plus Williams career completion % is under 50%

The MVP of that Super Bowl should have been the play caller or the whomever made the game plan. The score could have been worse as Washington dropped 4 passes in the first quarter. Three where the receiver was wide open and the 4th where Clark had a couple steps on the DB near the sideline. One of the passes was from Schroeder. Does Williams get credit for picking up the receiver? Yes but those guys were wide open. He wasn't putting any passes in a tight window either. Timmy Smith ran through huge holes too.

Sonny9 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 1:54 am Too much emphasis on Williams is one game. He was bad the first 2 playoff games. Hit 40% of his passes. Washington won because of Greens punt return TD in the first game and a dropped pass by Nelson that may have been a TD in the second game. Plus Williams career completion % is under 50%

The MVP of that Super Bowl should have been the play caller or the whomever made the game plan. The score could have been worse as Washington dropped 4 passes in the first quarter. Three where the receiver was wide open and the 4th where Clark had a couple steps on the DB near the sideline. One of the passes was from Schroeder. Does Williams get credit for picking up the receiver? Yes but those guys were wide open. He wasn't putting any passes in a tight window either. Timmy Smith ran through huge holes too.

The MVP was Williams because he threw a SB-record 340 yards plus four TDs. If it wasn't Williams, it would be Smith. I like the idea of an offensive lineman or two as game MVP, and hopefully one day that happens. But perfectly reasonable for Williams to be MVP; to this day, it's one of the iconic MVP performances in Super Bowl history.

readjack wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 10:48 am

Sonny9 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 02, 2024 1:54 am Too much emphasis on Williams is one game. He was bad the first 2 playoff games. Hit 40% of his passes. Washington won because of Greens punt return TD in the first game and a dropped pass by Nelson that may have been a TD in the second game. Plus Williams career completion % is under 50%

The MVP of that Super Bowl should have been the play caller or the whomever made the game plan. The score could have been worse as Washington dropped 4 passes in the first quarter. Three where the receiver was wide open and the 4th where Clark had a couple steps on the DB near the sideline. One of the passes was from Schroeder. Does Williams get credit for picking up the receiver? Yes but those guys were wide open. He wasn't putting any passes in a tight window either. Timmy Smith ran through huge holes too.

The MVP was Williams because he threw a SB-record 340 yards plus four TDs. If it wasn't Williams, it would be Smith. I like the idea of an offensive lineman or two as game MVP, and hopefully one day that happens. But perfectly reasonable for Williams to be MVP; to this day, it's one of the iconic MVP performances in Super Bowl history.

Fair points, and I'd put Sanders in the mix as the MVP, 9-193-2

Additional facts about John Wooten:

1. Helped create the Rooney rule.

2. NFL built scout training program and named it the Nunn-Wooten scouting fellowship.

3. Messenger guard for Browns, trading with Gene Hickerson.

4. Played college ball at Colorado with Boyd Dowler and Frank Clarke.