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Re: WRs who could/should have won MVP
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 7:14 pm
by JohnTurney
Retro Rider wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 11:34 am
John, we're there N.Y. Chapter Awards in 1964? Your previous list had Alworth winning in 1965:
I think 1965 was the first year.
Re: WRs who could/should have won MVP
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 7:19 pm
by JohnTurney
Brian wolf wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 12:35 pm
There are 25 RBs in NFL history with over 20 TDs in a season, with five having the most(tied with 2 each) Tomlinson, Faulk, Holmes, Alexander and E Smith. Tomlinson of course, is the only one with 30 or more in a season.
RBs have and edge in short-yardage situations ... especially when the care good at SY/GL ... sometimes great backs were replaced by thought runners in those situations for periods of their career ... but also all those guys except maybe 1-2 were excellent receiving, picking up some extra TDs other RBs would miss out on because they were not as elite when catching the ball.
All but Alexander were good out of the backfield with a few of them being great out of backfield. Al that had to have upped their total--coaches knew
they could deliver in all situations so they got their number called a few more times than most backs
For WRs ... a little harder to get a handful of short ones...
Re: WRs who could/should have won MVP
Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2023 7:42 pm
by JohnTurney
Bob Gill wrote: ↑Thu Dec 07, 2023 12:47 am
For my money, the Detroit News selections were much closer to "major" than any of these.
I am sure you are right...I simply left off the DN (Shofner, 1961)
and other papers/publications like Buffalo News (Jerry Rice, 1993)
Cleveland Plain Dealer (Moss, 1998)
Minneapolis Star-Tribune and New York Daily News (Rice, 1987)
As being newspapers and not an organization ... not judging the "worthiness"
of any picks ... other than not the ones in Total Football and not a paper.
I agree that Shofner's 1961 is a legit thing.
Another kind of separate is Sports Illustrated (Dwight Clark 1982, Rice, 1986, 87, 90, 1993) by Dr Z
Re: WRs who could/should have won MVP
Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2023 2:13 am
by Brian wolf
Youre right Jay Z ... especially awhile back when runners were more appreciated and the game was different with more defensive attrition but since 2010, there have been 6 runners with over 20 TDs over a season and only one, Todd Gurley, who won at least OPOY during the SB season in 2018 with none being named MVP, even with most of them gaining over 2000 scrimmage yards as well.
Re: WRs who could/should have won MVP
Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 1:39 pm
by Crazy Packers Fan
The 1987 MVP race was a classic case of the Ross Perot effect. Jerry Rice and Joe Montana were so outstanding that voters didn't know which one to give the award to. They got 48 combined votes, whereas John Elway got the remaining 36. Rice, who set the NFL record for receiving TDs in a season despite playing only 12 games, got 30 votes and Montana (playing the part of Perot) got 18. If ever a WR deserved MVP, it was Rice in 1987.
Re: WRs who could/should have won MVP
Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 2:22 am
by Ness
Crazy Packers Fan wrote: ↑Sun Dec 10, 2023 1:39 pm
The 1987 MVP race was a classic case of the Ross Perot effect. Jerry Rice and Joe Montana were so outstanding that voters didn't know which one to give the award to. They got 48 combined votes, whereas John Elway got the remaining 36. Rice, who set the NFL record for receiving TDs in a season despite playing only 12 games, got 30 votes and Montana (playing the part of Perot) got 18. If ever a WR deserved MVP, it was Rice in 1987.
You're not wrong
Elway getting the award over Montana/Rice was nutty. I think that's the only time we had a QB win MVP, but not get 1st-Team All-Pro lmao.
Re: WRs who could/should have won MVP
Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 10:51 am
by Hail Casares
Randy Moss in 1998 would have been/should have been more in the conversation than he was.
Re: WRs who could/should have won MVP
Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 11:45 am
by JohnTurney
Ness wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 2:22 am
Elway getting the award over Montana/Rice was nutty. I think that's the only time we had a QB win MVP, but not get 1st-Team All-Pro lmao.
It was eye test award plus the aspect of "value" as in the literal definition --like when middle infielders win the MVP in baseball ... back in the day Dick Groat or Nellie Fox. Their "value" was more than the sum of their stats. To intangibles, all the things you read about.
Elway's teams were nothing without him, esp in the late 1980s ... and the plays he made that (and other years) year and the arm and legs and the "wow" factor was the sentiment, IMO.
Not saying I agree with that -- or disagree -- I think that was the reasoning. The best part of that, though, is when younger people see the stats (Elway, Aikman, Namath ) that don't meet certain standards it sparks debate. Those are always fun ...
Re: WRs who could/should have won MVP
Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:18 pm
by 7DnBrnc53
JohnTurney wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 11:45 am
Ness wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 2:22 am
Elway getting the award over Montana/Rice was nutty. I think that's the only time we had a QB win MVP, but not get 1st-Team All-Pro lmao.
It was eye test award plus the aspect of "value" as in the literal definition --like when middle infielders win the MVP in baseball ... back in the day Dick Groat or Nellie Fox. Their "value" was more than the sum of their stats. To intangibles, all the things you read about.
Elway's teams were nothing without him, esp in the late 1980s ... and the plays he made that (and other years) year and the arm and legs and the "wow" factor was the sentiment, IMO.
Not saying I agree with that -- or disagree -- I think that was the reasoning. The best part of that, though, is when younger people see the stats (Elway, Aikman, Namath ) that don't meet certain standards it sparks debate. Those are always fun ...
The stats that Elway had from 1983-92 had a lot to do with Dan Reeves and his antiquated system. Steve Watson called it the Edsel System. Elway also didn't have the best supporting casts. Montana and Rice were in an offense that was way more suited to putting up great stats.
Re: WRs who could/should have won MVP
Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:41 pm
by RichardBak
Hail Casares wrote: ↑Mon Dec 11, 2023 10:51 am
Randy Moss in 1998 would have been/should have been more in the conversation than he was.
That '98 Vikes team was awesome. I remember Andersen missing that FG vs Atlanta in the NFC title game--he hadn't missed a single kick FG or PAT all season. Something like 90 or 100 kicks. I remember thinking at the time, "This guy is overdue." And he missed it.
Anyway, back to Moss....I think the problem was, he was in
too many conversations, but not of the right kind. He had some baggage coming out of college, so that might've hurt him with the folks who vote on such things. But he was beast right out of the starting gate.