Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

"The refs Rob Lytle'd an obvious fumble" ... nice term

Another knock on Young would be that his 49ers had three home playoff losses (1992 NFC Champ, 1995 Divisional, 1997 NFC Champ) without any road victories.

Good call Jay Z but also the 1990 NFC Championship game to the Giants. When Joe got knocked out, I thought he also fumbled which set up the Giants FG but his teammate recovered his fumble. Joe left the game with a 13-9 lead, while the Giants had to drive and convert a key 4th down play on special teams (Reasons) which set up the FG to 13-12 before Young enters the game. Joe as starter is credited for the loss but I feel it should have been on Young ...

Bryan wrote:

Ness wrote:Steve Young's game-winning TD pass to Terrell Owens in the 1998 NFC Wild Card game is one of the hallmarks of NFL history, and a staple of NFL Films.

I think that's a bit of an oversell. It was just a wild card game, the refs Rob Lytle'd an obvious Jerry Rice fumble that would have ended the game in the Packers' favor, and the Niners promptly lost the following week to the Falcons (Steve Young 1TD, 3 INT). The game had no greater impact, other than perhaps helping launch the HC 'career' of one of the dumbest coaches ever, Marty Mohrningweg. It was a nice throw by Young and an exciting play, but I'm not seeing any greater historical significance.

There was a media buzz at that time that if the 49ers lost that game, Mariucci would have been fired, and Holmgren would have come back to San Francisco to be the HC. He was already on his way out anyway in Green Bay as I recall due to a power struggle with the front brass. Andy Reid also might not become coach of the Eagles, as he stated in his own words on the NFL Greatest Games segment "If Owens doesn't make that catch, then I probably don't become the Eagles head coach. I don't think they could have waited another week." That loss was basically the end of the Packers dominant period of the mid to late 90's. Reggie left, and Holmgren left. They wouldn't return to the playoffs for two more years. The game itself certainly did have big ramifications for both squads. Mariucci basically bought himself a few more years with that win over the Packers.

As for Young, yeah it was just a wild card game, but you can say that about any of the most prominent moments in NFL history profiled on loop depending on how far one wants to place or move the goalposts.

"The Immaculate Reception was just a divisional game, and the Steelers got bounced the following week at home against Miami."

"The Drive was nice, but it's a bit of an oversell, since the Broncos got axed against the Redskins a week later."

"Garrison Heart's OT rumble was cool, but it was only opening day of the NFL season. Yawn."

Jay Z wrote:Young had the 1998 comeback against the Packers, that was his one playoff comeback.

Other than that and the 6 TDs in the Super Bowl, his performance in playoff games was underwhelming, disappointing from a rate standpoint.

Actually if you look at the QBs that were in the playoffs around that time, Steve had one of the higher QB ratings with an extended sample size. Troy Aikman I think was only higher in the 90's. Don't think Elway, Moon, or Dan were. 49ers were also never one and done during that decade. You're right in that Steve only has one late-game playoff comeback, but quarterbacks in the playoffs that have multiple comebacks probably are the only ones with multiple rings, or more likely they were never behind in the first place. It's crazy hard to have multiple late game comebacks in one postseason, let alone in a career-worth. Especially in that era.

The 1998/99 WC game was still a great win for Young who finally beat GB and kept them from making another run towards the SB, considering both Atlanta and Minn had out of character years.
To this day, I still cant believe Holmgren left Brett Favre but there had to be friction between he and Ron Wolf--especially over the SB loss to Denver--and Holmgren decided to take a position with more managing authority. The missed Rice fumble was crucial but had Owens caught the ball more during the game, it might not have ever had the late game drama that makes it memorable to Niners fans.

Speaking of the Immaculate Reception game ...

RIP Franco Harris

Sorry Ness, but the Niners were one and done in both 1995 and 1996 to Favre and GB, which makes that 98 win, sweeter for Young.

Ness wrote:There was a media buzz at that time that if the 49ers lost that game, Mariucci would have been fired, and Holmgren would have come back to San Francisco to be the HC.

A lot to unpack here. First, not a big fan of 'media buzz'. Mariucci had been with the Niners for two seasons and compiled records of 13-3 and 12-4. Not sure why any team would fire a coach after only two seasons when the guy has a 25-7 record. The reason Holmgren went to Seattle was he wanted total control of the football operation. I doubt Holmgren would 'go back' to SF to simply be a HC. The Niners would have had to fire not only their 25-7 HC in Mariucci, they also would have had to fire Dwight Clark and John McVay. I don't see the Niners making wholesale changes after a 12-4 season.

Ness wrote:Andy Reid also might not become coach of the Eagles, as he stated in his own words on the NFL Greatest Games segment "If Owens doesn't make that catch, then I probably don't become the Eagles head coach. I don't think they could have waited another week."

That would be an interesting angle if it came from the Philly management, but even then its purely speculative.

Ness wrote:" That loss was basically the end of the Packers dominant period of the mid to late 90's. Reggie left, and Holmgren left. They wouldn't return to the playoffs for two more years. The game itself certainly did have big ramifications for both squads. Mariucci basically bought himself a few more years with that win over the Packers.

This doesn't make any sense. After that alleged franchise-crushing loss to the Niners, the Packers would 'bottom out' at 8-8 then post 5 straight winning records with 4 straight 10+ win seasons. They wouldn't return to the playoffs for two 'more' years...OK? I'm guessing the departure of Mike Holmgren and Reggie White had more to do with the decline than the WC loss to the Niners. In subsequent years, Mariucci would post consecutive records of 4-12 and 6-10...and he still kept his job. So the idea is the Niners would fire Mariucci after a 12-4 season, but in reality they would keep Mariucci after a 4-12 season? The Niners had a bad year in 1999, but I would say that was more to do with Steve Young retiring due to concussions than the Niners winning the 1998 WC game. Is the implication that, had the Niners lost to GB, then Young wouldn't have gotten concussed in 1999?

Ness wrote:As for Young, yeah it was just a wild card game, but you can say that about any of the most prominent moments in NFL history

My statement was factual. It was just a wild card game with minimal historic significance. The Niners won an exciting game, got stomped by the Falcons the next week, and the NFL continued forward. The majority of prominent moments in NFL history did not take place during insignificant WC games.

Ness wrote:As for Young, yeah it was just a wild card game, but you can say that about any of the most prominent moments in NFL history profiled on loop depending on how far one wants to place or move the goalposts.

"The Immaculate Reception was just a divisional game, and the Steelers got bounced the following week at home against Miami."

"The Drive was nice, but it's a bit of an oversell, since the Broncos got axed against the Redskins a week later."

"Garrison Heart's OT rumble was cool, but it was only opening day of the NFL season. Yawn."

I guess you want to move the goalposts to a different galaxy....you start with the greatest play in NFL history, you incorrectly identify the year of The Drive, and then you end with a mention of Garrison Hearst. Who knew that NFL history had so many hallmarks?

Ness wrote:

Jay Z wrote:Young had the 1998 comeback against the Packers, that was his one playoff comeback.

Other than that and the 6 TDs in the Super Bowl, his performance in playoff games was underwhelming, disappointing from a rate standpoint.

Actually if you look at the QBs that were in the playoffs around that time, Steve had one of the higher QB ratings with an extended sample size. Troy Aikman I think was only higher in the 90's. Don't think Elway, Moon, or Dan were. 49ers were also never one and done during that decade. You're right in that Steve only has one late-game playoff comeback, but quarterbacks in the playoffs that have multiple comebacks probably are the only ones with multiple rings, or more likely they were never behind in the first place. It's crazy hard to have multiple late game comebacks in one postseason, let alone in a career-worth. Especially in that era.

You're not wrong. But the point is more that Young declined from his regular season performance and that contributed to the disappointing performance of his teams.

If the Niners went 12-4 in a given year then Young's quarterback rating was part of that performance. Young's rating declined in the playoffs by about 10 points, and about 15 points if it's the Niners performance only. Whereas Montana raised his, Aikman raised his. Elway was about the same. Elway had a lot lower rating than Young, in the regular season, but he sustained his rating in the playoffs, so his teams didn't underperform. Marino was another one with a dropoff similar to Young, but Marino had a losing record in the playoffs. Marino played well in the SB year, 1984. He lost three games at home and won one on the road. Only other year he really played well in the playoffs was 1994, but their offense also did a massive turtle job in losing to the Chargers with a 21-6 lead at halftime.

Point being that Young did not perform to his own standard in the playoffs, and the Niners performed likewise during his time as starter.

Brian wolf wrote:Sorry Ness, but the Niners were one and done in both 1995 and 1996 to Favre and GB, which makes that 98 win, sweeter for Young.

You're right about 1995. I forgot. Not 1996 though. They beat the Eagles 14-0 in the wild card. Steve suffered messed up ribs in that game, and couldn't go the next week against the Packers in Lambeau. So it was Elvis Grbac, and that essentially nuked the 49ers chances.