Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

vikingsfan1963 wrote:My referencing Gillman was simply as a coach. A team with back-to-back 1-13 campaigns (I know he went 1-8 in '73) improved to 7-7 in '74. I had no idea he was the GM of a period of some bad drafting decisions!

Wasn't that what they said about Mike Holmgren? Its too bad that Holmgren the coach doesn't have the authority to fire Holmgren the GM?

Jay Z wrote:

Teo wrote:

Bryan wrote:The first two picks of the Saints existence were strange...a FB from Alabama who the Saints planned to convert to LB, and a QB from Houston who the Saints planned to convert to DB. The early Saints drafts produced some good NFL players, they either never played for the Saints or the Saints traded these players away. The first draft also had John Gilliam and Dave Rowe, who were traded away, and Ron Widby, who played for Dallas and GB. The 1970 draft had the underrated Ken Burrough, Delles Howell, Steve Ramsey, Jim Otis, Doug Sutherland. Maybe not HOF caliber players, but all these guys definitely would have been major contributors to a team like the Saints. Their drafts during the 70's were pretty terrible, but they also had coaches who seemingly couldn't evaluate talent, either.

They had a few good draft choice on defense like Jim Merlo and Tommy Myers, who was one of my favorite safeties of the 70s, and he even played on the USFL for the Houston Gamblers. But they couldn´t build a good offensive line, even when they had Muncie, Galbreath and Chandler.

They only gave up 17 sacks in 1979, and had the same line for all but one game, so they had continuity, at least.

In the end, I don't think Archie Manning was any better than Brian Sipe. Maybe not as good.

It's true that Manning played fairly well in 1972, then lost Abramowicz and Parks and had to deal with some weak receivers. But he didn't do a lot to overcome his circumstances either. He had the high draft status and the "tragedy" of playing on mostly poor football teams. But even in 1979, with a lot of offensive weapons and even a consistent line, still an 8-8 record, only 15 TD passes and 20 INTs. He was good in 1978-80, but just another guy that was good for a few years.

The Saints OL in 1979 consisted of tackles J.T. Taylor and Robert Woods, guards Emanuel Zanders and Conrad Dobler (a former Pro Bowler), and center John Hill (who I always thought was underrated), plus Pro Bowl tight end Henry Childs. In 1980, rookie Stan Brock replaced Woods and Fred Sturt replaced Dobler (who went to Buffalo).

I didn't see Manning all that much, but my impression was that he became gun-shy, too quick to leave the pocket and start scrambling. The same thing happened with Tobin Rote with the Packers and Jim Plunkett with the Patriots, to name two quarterbacks whom I saw very often. Rote and Plunkett both eventually recovered from it but I don't think Manning ever did.

That's a really good observation about Manning and Plunkett. Plunkett had a pretty good rookie year but thereafter was under constant siege much like Manning was most of his entire career. Just take a peek at the highlights of those teams on YouTube and you'll witness the evidence.

Not saying this is the main reason for Archie Manning's failures in the 1970's but prior to his arrival the Saints made a couple of trades that didn't help.

1-28-69 They traded John Gilliam to the Cardinals for Dave Long, Dick Kasperak, Brady Keys and a second round dr ch 1969 which turned out to be Richard Neal. So they basically traded a quality receiver for 3 dudes and a draft pick that turned out to be an okay defensive lineman.

Almost two years later to the day 1-25-71 They traded Ken Burrough & Dave Rowe to the Oilers for Hoyle Grainger, Terry Stoepel, Charlie Blossum and a second round dr ch 1971 which was Sam Holden. So they traded another quality WR and a decent DL for 2 more dudes, an aged RB and a draft pick that was a bust.

Definitely looking for quantity over quality.

Had they not made the trades, Manning could have started his career with Abramowicz, Gilliam and Burrough as his receivers and a aging TE in Dave Parks. Now I realize that this probably would not have changed things drastically but it certainly could have gained them a few more victories from 1971 to 1975.