Most tyrannical NFL coach

[Jay Z]

I find it interesting that, despite his reputation, no one has mentioned Lombardi in this thread...

I'm guessing because it was a given and the level of success he had was unparalleled. While Brown achieved great heights, his Browns teams also lost four title games, while Lombardi was 5-1, 7-1 with the Super Bowls.

I remember reading how one of Lombardi's assistants, Bill Austin, tried the hard-ass routine when he took over the Steelers, pre-Noll, and was an abject failure.

Lombardi was hard but you could tell he loved his guys, but once they lost a step, he wouldn't hesitate to get rid of them. If you worked your butt off for Lombardi, and gave him 100 percent, you'd have a job with him until he found somebody better than you, and that kept you working your tail off every single day.

Not disputing you, but I'm just trying to think who you would be referring to.

Jim Ringo's trade didn't really have anything to do with talent, no matter what story you believed. Lombardi tried to play Skoronski at center but it didn't work, so he had to go with rookie Ken Bowman. Gregg, Skoronski, and Jerry Kramer went the route with Lombardi. Norm Masters retired. Fuzzy Thurston was beaten out a couple of times, but was not exactly a world class talent.

Ron Kramer left for personal reasons, to try and save his marriage. He would have been kept on. Max McGee was benched eventually, but he wasn't young when it happened, and was still kept around. Dowler went the whole way. Gary Knafelc? Beaten out by Ron Kramer, and Lombardi inherited both of them.

Starr went the route. McHan was traded, as was John Roach.

Taylor would have been asked back in 1967. Hornung would have been kept if he could still play. Elijah Pitts sat for a few years. Tom Moore was moved because they needed room for Anderson and Grabowski.

Dave Hanner got beat out by Kostelnik, but again, not all that young. Was kept in the organization. Bill Quinlan was apparently a discipline problem even for Lombardi.

Bill Forrester retired. Dan Currie got banged up and lost something, maybe you could be referring to him.

There was some changeover in the defensive backfield. Johnny Symank, Hank Gremminger, Jesse Whittenton all moved out. Adderley was a 1st round draft pick, great athlete, HOFer. Had to play somewhere. Bob Jeter was another great athlete who actually sat for a while before starting. Doug Hart was kept around after being beaten out by Jeter.

Don Chandler would have been welcomed back in 1968 had he wanted to play.

The guys Lombardi traded were the younger guys who didn't have a path to a bigger role. Earl Gros, Lloyd Voss, Ken Iman. Lombardi would trade those guys for more draft picks.

[BD Sullivan]

The linking of Brown and Lombardi recalls that Brown traded away some MAJOR talent to Lombardi and generally got the short end of the stick.

[Saban1]

The linking of Brown and Lombardi recalls that Brown traded away some MAJOR talent to Lombardi and generally got the short end of the stick.

Brown and Lombardi were friends starting when Brown recommended Vince for the Green Bay head coaching job. Brown said, in his book, that he felt responsible for Lombardi and offered him a list of players available for trade. The Browns were deep in defensive linemen, so Lombardi took Willie Davis and Henry Jordan. Later, Vince offered Ernie Green to the Browns when they were loaded with running backs (1962). No more offers were forthcoming from Lombardi after Brown was fired following the 1962 season.

Cleveland did get some good players from the Packers pre-Lombardi like Bob Gain, Walt Michaels, and Art Hunter.

BTW, Frank Ryan at Washington in 1969 was having some trouble with a loan or some deal with Art Modell. He was talking to Coach Lombardi about it and Lombardi told him, "Be careful of that man." Wonder why he would say that?

[rhickok1109]

Actually, Lombardi was a very good psychologist was tough on players who needed it but gentle with players who didn't respond well to criticism.

[JeffreyMiller]

Actually, Lombardi was a very good psychologist was tough on players who needed it but gentle with players who didn't respond well to criticism.

I think in many ways, Lou Saban was cut from the Lombardi mold.

[conace21]

I find it interesting that, despite his reputation, no one has mentioned Lombardi in this thread...

I'm guessing because it was a given and the level of success he had was unparalleled. While Brown achieved great heights, his Browns teams also lost four title games, while Lombardi was 5-1, 7-1 with the Super Bowls.

I remember reading how one of Lombardi's assistants, Bill Austin, tried the hard-ass routine when he took over the Steelers, pre-Noll, and was an abject failure.

Lombardi was hard but you could tell he loved his guys, but once they lost a step, he wouldn't hesitate to get rid of them. If you worked your butt off for Lombardi, and gave him 100 percent, you'd have a job with him until he found somebody better than you, and that kept you working your tail off every single day.

Brown and Lombardi each had a healthy ego, and while Lombardi was more volatile, Brown's ego sometimes overtook his sense of decency. He never spoke to Mac Speedie after the end went to the CFL. I recall reading on this forum that he didn't talk to Blanton Collier for 20 years because Collier replaced him as Browns coach. (I've never heard any allegation that Collier played a role in the firing, whispering in Modell's ear.)
Bill Walsh alleged that Brown tried to sabotage his attempts to bring a head coach, not only passing on Walsh to become his successor as Cincinnati's head coach, but also giving negative reviews to other teams who inquired about Walsh.
His attitude towards Modell is more understandable, but even Jimmy and Jerry were able to reconcile, and that firing was less understandable. Brown thought he should have remained head coach because of his past, Jimmy thought he should stay in Dallas because of what he was doing in the present. However, both failed to realize that despite their success, they each had to answer to the owner. A poisoned relationship with the owner was going to lead to a split, and it's the employee who will always be moving on.

[Saban1]

Paul Brown said, in his book, that he used to talk to Collier before his Cincinnati/Cleveland games. I don't think that Jerry Jones undermined Jimmy Johnson's coaching at Dallas as I believe that Modell did to Brown at Cleveland.

As for Speedie, he still had some more years on his contract when he left for Canada. Brown actually went to court about the Canadian teams raiding the NFL for players. It might have helped Cleveland having Speedie in the 1953 championship game that they lost by one point. Brown and Speedie really did not get along so well at Cleveland, but Brown spoke highly about Mac's pass catching in his book. Jim Taylor played out his option with Green Bay and then went to New Orleans and signed a lucrative contract. Nothing illegal about that, but Lombardi did take it personally.

Brown said that he honestly did not think that Bill Walsh would make it as a head coach. He later admitted that he was wrong.

As far as losing championship games, I think it is better to play in a championship game and lose than to not make it to the title game as Lombardi's Packers did in 1963 and 1964. You could also make a case that the Pack should not have made it in 1965 when a missed field goal called good by refs got them into overtime in playoff game with the Colts, which they won.

You could also make a case that the Browns got screwed out of a couple of championships during the 50's.

I think that Brown did pretty well at Cincinnati despite being in his 60's and being out of football for 5 years. His Bengals got pretty good (10 and 4 in 1973 and 11 and 3 in 1975), but Pittsburgh in the same division got good about the same time as Cincinnati and were loaded with talent. There was also Miami and Oakland in the same conference (AFC).

[conace21]

Paul Brown said, in his book, that he used to talk to Collier before his Cincinnati/Cleveland games. I don't think that Jerry Jones undermined Jimmy Johnson's coaching at Dallas as I believe that Modell did to Brown at Cleveland.

As for Speedie, he still had some more years on his contract when he left for Canada. Brown actually went to court about the Canadian teams raiding the NFL for players. It might have helped Cleveland having Speedie in the 1953 championship game that they lost by one point. Brown and Speedie really did not get along so well at Cleveland, but Brown spoke highly about Mac's pass catching in his book. Jim Taylor played out his option with Green Bay and then went to New Orleans and signed a lucrative contract. Nothing illegal about that, but Lombardi did take it personally.

Brown said that he honestly did not think that Bill Walsh would make it as a head coach. He later admitted that he was wrong.

As far as losing championship games, I think it is better to play in a championship game and lose than to not make it to the title game as Lombardi's Packers did in 1963 and 1964. You could also make a case that the Pack should not have made it in 1965 when a missed field goal called good by refs got them into overtime in playoff game with the Colts, which they won.

You could also make a case that the Browns got screwed out of a couple of championships during the 50's.

I think that Brown did pretty well at Cincinnati despite being in his 60's and being out of football for 5 years. His Bengals got pretty good (10 and 4 in 1973 and 11 and 3 in 1975), but Pittsburgh in the same division got good about the same time as Cincinnati and were loaded with talent. There was also Miami and Oakland in the same conference (AFC).

Jones desperately wanted to receive his share of credit for the personnel moves that put Dallas on top. I believe at the time he was the only owner who had played major college football, and he wanted to be known for more than just his business and marketing sense. Judging by how the Dallas drafts tanked immediately after Johnson left, I'd say Jimmy was the main force behind the Cowboys drafting success.

But neither Jimmy nor Paul Brown realized that they had a boss to answer to. Art Modell wanted to be a more hands-on owner than previous Browns owners and PB either didn't recognize it, or didn't respect that.

I understand that Speedie's original contract has expired, but the Browns had exercised an option to extend it for one more year. Regardless, that contract mandated that the only NFL team Speedie could play for was Cleveland, and it would be for X amount of money. If Speedie wanted to sell insurance, or fish, or play football in Canada (for more money) instead of playing for Cleveland, he could do so.
If Cleveland had decided Speedie was no longer worth his salary, they could have broken the contract and cut him. Brown may have spoken highly of Speedie in his book, but according to an LA Times article, “I was overlooked and a lot of it was Paul Brown,” said Speedie, 71. “He told me when I jumped leagues that he was going to get even with me." Brown may or may not have tried to keep Speedie out of the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
If Brown didn't think Bill Walsh would be a good head coach, that's a good reason not to hire him as the Bengals head coach. It is less defensible to not tell Walsh that other teams were asking about him as a head coaching candidate.

I do agree that it's better to be runner up in the championship game than to sit at home for the title game.

[Jay Z]

It's better to be in the championship than not.

But sometimes competition is harder than others. The 1963 Packers were 11-2-1. That was better than the 1961, 1965, and 1967 championship teams. But the Bears were better that year.

For the second half of the 1950s and all of the 1960s, the Western Conference was better than the Eastern Conference. The teams rarely played each other, but the West won the "season series" nearly every year, and most of the championship games. Was finishing second in the West worse than finishing first in the East? Apples and oranges.

[Saban1]

It's better to be in the championship than not.

But sometimes competition is harder than others. The 1963 Packers were 11-2-1. That was better than the 1961, 1965, and 1967 championship teams. But the Bears were better that year.

For the second half of the 1950s and all of the 1960s, the Western Conference was better than the Eastern Conference. The teams rarely played each other, but the West won the "season series" nearly every year, and most of the championship games. Was finishing second in the West worse than finishing first in the East? Apples and oranges.

All true, except that the Western Conference was weaker than usual during the mid 50's as the eastern champion won the NFL title games by big scores (56 to 10 in 1954, 38 to 14 in 1955, and 47 to 7 in 1956), and the 49ers were weaker after 1954, the Rams were weaker after 1955, and the mighty Detroit Lions fell all the way to last place in 1955.

The Cleveland Browns lost championship games in 1951 and 1953 after only losing one game during both of those seasons. Both losses were close (24 to 17 in 1951 and 17 to 16 in 1953) and the Browns had to play both of those games in the other teams ballpark despite having the best record.

Owners do have the right to fire coaches, but I doubt that Brown or Johnson were the type of guys that would "walk on eggshells" around their bosses. One thing is that Modell wanted Brown to put Ernie Davis in a game even though he had a terminal illness. Brown refused, and this is one of the things that caused friction between them. I think that I would be with Brown on that one.

Brown said, in his book, that he did not see Speedie for 17 years after Mac left for Canada. I don't expect that Brown would look up his former players after they were gone, but he was friendly with some players that stayed in touch like Otto Graham and Mike McCormack. Brown died in 1991,so I doubt that he could have kept Speedie out of the HOF, but I guess that anything is possible.

Speaking of McCormack, Brown said in his book, that Mike said that Brown was the finest coach that he had ever played for and yet he didn't think that the Browns would ever win another championship with Brown as coach and Modell as owner. Brown said that the part of "and Modell as owner was" truncated. So, believe what you want. Vince Costello said that players that trashed Brown after the firing were given pay raises. Could be, but I don't really know any of this stuff for sure.