Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Hey I'm a Steeler fan, and still find the Pouncey thing annoying. I'm totally ok on Champ in the Hall, simply do not think he's first ballott, he's not Night Train, Deion, Rod Woodson or even Jim Johnson, I think he's a good second tier HOF CB.

Reaser is 100% right on the schematic keys in assessing a position like Corner, there may be no other position that's as reliant on scheme - heck look at Marcus Peters this year! And Sherman benefitted a ton from Earl Thomas, but also excelled in that scheme. Only the truly all timers at Corner weren't scheme dependent, the amazing thing is how rare it is for someone at that position to truly be the best in the league for more than 3-4 seasons - makes you appreciate Night Train, Deion and Jim Johnson even more.

bachslunch wrote:Reaser, agreed that there seems to be some kind of favoritism regarding Steeler o-linemen lately that may or may not necessarily be warranted. Maurkice Pouncey, David DeCastro, Alejandro Villanueva — are they really all that and a bag of rice, or is this Steeler hype? Or in Villanueva’s case, anti-Kaepernick backlash? One wonders.

Add in Faneca. Though better rated than Mawae by Pro Scout, Inc, nowhere near Hutchinson. Although Villianueva was good last year.. IMO. Pouncy and DeCarstro are like Faneca..."red" usually, not "blue"

NWebster wrote:Hey I'm a Steeler fan, and still find the Pouncey thing annoying. I'm totally ok on Champ in the Hall, simply do not think he's first ballott, he's not Night Train, Deion, Rod Woodson or even Jim Johnson, I think he's a good second tier HOF CB.

Reaser is 100% right on the schematic keys in assessing a position like Corner, there may be no other position that's as reliant on scheme - heck look at Marcus Peters this year! And Sherman benefitted a ton from Earl Thomas, but also excelled in that scheme. Only the truly all timers at Corner weren't scheme dependent, the amazing thing is how rare it is for someone at that position to truly be the best in the league for more than 3-4 seasons - makes you appreciate Night Train, Deion and Jim Johnson even more.

Right, and the individual passer rating is just one tool. Nothing can ever be complete on a team with 11 moving parts or 7, in terms of coverage. But it can add to the general knowledge. So, it's better we have it than not have it.

NWebster wrote:Hey I'm a Steeler fan, and still find the Pouncey thing annoying. I'm totally ok on Champ in the Hall, simply do not think he's first ballott, he's not Night Train, Deion, Rod Woodson or even Jim Johnson, I think he's a good second tier HOF CB.

Reaser is 100% right on the schematic keys in assessing a position like Corner, there may be no other position that's as reliant on scheme - heck look at Marcus Peters this year! And Sherman benefitted a ton from Earl Thomas, but also excelled in that scheme. Only the truly all timers at Corner weren't scheme dependent, the amazing thing is how rare it is for someone at that position to truly be the best in the league for more than 3-4 seasons - makes you appreciate Night Train, Deion and Jim Johnson even more.

Who is your "top tier" of CBs? I could probably name at least 10 CBs all-time better than Bailey.

sluggermatt15 wrote:

NWebster wrote:Hey I'm a Steeler fan, and still find the Pouncey thing annoying. I'm totally ok on Champ in the Hall, simply do not think he's first ballott, he's not Night Train, Deion, Rod Woodson or even Jim Johnson, I think he's a good second tier HOF CB.

Reaser is 100% right on the schematic keys in assessing a position like Corner, there may be no other position that's as reliant on scheme - heck look at Marcus Peters this year! And Sherman benefitted a ton from Earl Thomas, but also excelled in that scheme. Only the truly all timers at Corner weren't scheme dependent, the amazing thing is how rare it is for someone at that position to truly be the best in the league for more than 3-4 seasons - makes you appreciate Night Train, Deion and Jim Johnson even more.

Who is your "top tier" of CBs? I could probably name at least 10 CBs all-time better than Bailey.

Yeah, when you think of the CBs that you just wanted your QB to stay away from at all costs, Bailey's name doesn't come up.

Every time I think of the guys with lots of Pro Bowl nods, I think of Jeff Saturday, who got announced for the Pro Bowl within a day or so of the Packers benching him because he stunk.

Re undeserved Pro Bowl nods, have seen the notion that players often get one they shouldn’t have at the end of their Pro Bowl run but also get snubbed the year before they make their first one (unless they’re rookies, of course). If that’s true, they cancel each other out.

May be true, may not be. Just an observation.

Jeremy Crowhurst wrote:Every time I think of the guys with lots of Pro Bowl nods, I think of Jeff Saturday, who got announced for the Pro Bowl within a day or so of the Packers benching him because he stunk.

He also played a play for the AFC in that Pro Bowl ...

sluggermatt15 wrote:

NWebster wrote:Hey I'm a Steeler fan, and still find the Pouncey thing annoying. I'm totally ok on Champ in the Hall, simply do not think he's first ballott, he's not Night Train, Deion, Rod Woodson or even Jim Johnson, I think he's a good second tier HOF CB.

Reaser is 100% right on the schematic keys in assessing a position like Corner, there may be no other position that's as reliant on scheme - heck look at Marcus Peters this year! And Sherman benefitted a ton from Earl Thomas, but also excelled in that scheme. Only the truly all timers at Corner weren't scheme dependent, the amazing thing is how rare it is for someone at that position to truly be the best in the league for more than 3-4 seasons - makes you appreciate Night Train, Deion and Jim Johnson even more.

Who is your "top tier" of CBs? I could probably name at least 10 CBs all-time better than Bailey.

My top tier would be:
Night Train
Deion
Jim Johnson
Mel Blount
Mike Haynes
Willie Brown
Rod Woodson
Derrell Revis

Next tier:
Lem Barney
Herb Adderly
Don Hutson
Jack Butler
Ty Law
Charles Woodson
Champ Bailey
Aeneas Williams
Richard Sherman
Louis Wright
Darrell Green
Emmitt Thomas

And I generally think everyone names here should be in the Hall eventually, though I think Thomas and Green are both reaches. Counted Lott as a Safety. I struggle a little with Deion at #2 given his absence against the run, but as a cover corner I'd probably have him #1 overall.

NWebster wrote:

sluggermatt15 wrote:

NWebster wrote:Hey I'm a Steeler fan, and still find the Pouncey thing annoying. I'm totally ok on Champ in the Hall, simply do not think he's first ballott, he's not Night Train, Deion, Rod Woodson or even Jim Johnson, I think he's a good second tier HOF CB.

Reaser is 100% right on the schematic keys in assessing a position like Corner, there may be no other position that's as reliant on scheme - heck look at Marcus Peters this year! And Sherman benefitted a ton from Earl Thomas, but also excelled in that scheme. Only the truly all timers at Corner weren't scheme dependent, the amazing thing is how rare it is for someone at that position to truly be the best in the league for more than 3-4 seasons - makes you appreciate Night Train, Deion and Jim Johnson even more.

Who is your "top tier" of CBs? I could probably name at least 10 CBs all-time better than Bailey.

My top tier would be:
Night Train
Deion
Jim Johnson
Mel Blount
Mike Haynes
Willie Brown
Rod Woodson
Derrell Revis

Next tier:
Lem Barney
Herb Adderly
Don Hutson
Jack Butler
Ty Law
Charles Woodson
Champ Bailey
Aeneas Williams
Richard Sherman
Louis Wright
Darrell Green
Emmitt Thomas

And I generally think everyone names here should be in the Hall eventually, though I think Thomas and Green are both reaches. Counted Lott as a Safety. I struggle a little with Deion at #2 given his absence against the run, but as a cover corner I'd probably have him #1 overall.

What keeps Adderley out of the first tier?

NWebster wrote:

sluggermatt15 wrote:

NWebster wrote:Hey I'm a Steeler fan, and still find the Pouncey thing annoying. I'm totally ok on Champ in the Hall, simply do not think he's first ballott, he's not Night Train, Deion, Rod Woodson or even Jim Johnson, I think he's a good second tier HOF CB.

Reaser is 100% right on the schematic keys in assessing a position like Corner, there may be no other position that's as reliant on scheme - heck look at Marcus Peters this year! And Sherman benefitted a ton from Earl Thomas, but also excelled in that scheme. Only the truly all timers at Corner weren't scheme dependent, the amazing thing is how rare it is for someone at that position to truly be the best in the league for more than 3-4 seasons - makes you appreciate Night Train, Deion and Jim Johnson even more.

Who is your "top tier" of CBs? I could probably name at least 10 CBs all-time better than Bailey.

My top tier would be:
Night Train
Deion
Jim Johnson
Mel Blount
Mike Haynes
Willie Brown
Rod Woodson
Derrell Revis

Next tier:
Lem Barney
Herb Adderly
Don Hutson
Jack Butler
Ty Law
Charles Woodson
Champ Bailey
Aeneas Williams
Richard Sherman
Louis Wright
Darrell Green
Emmitt Thomas

And I generally think everyone names here should be in the Hall eventually, though I think Thomas and Green are both reaches. Counted Lott as a Safety. I struggle a little with Deion at #2 given his absence against the run, but as a cover corner I'd probably have him #1 overall.

That's a nice list, but I think some of your second tier guys belong in the top tier as well. Adderly, Butler, Woodson, Aeneas Williams, Green IMO should all be in tier 1, too.

IMO, I also have these guys ahead of Bailey - Emlen Tunnell, Ken Riley, Ed Reed, Dick LeBeau, Bobby Boyd, and Johnny Robinson (maybe you could consider him a safety instead).

So, Bailey is far down the list as one of the best CBs, but he's HOF worthy, I guess, based on his credentials.