Manning Brady

[TanksAndSpartans]

It would be interesting to go through one-by-one and look at some of the surrounding factors - I don't know nearly enough post 1950 history to do it, but a couple of thoughts:

Brady: Like Jeremy said, not trying to knock Brady, but you could say he won the lottery in terms of timing with the team and coach he got
Marino: As a Dolphins fan as far back as '81, I don't think he ever really had a great situation
Elway: Similar to Marino for a while, but not whole time obviously
Graham: Probably closer to Brady than Marino given he wound up with Paul Brown and a D with guys like Ford and Willis (Some of the Dolphins defenses in the Marino era were painful to watch), but if you look at the backs and receivers other than Motley, who hit the NFL as a 30 yr-old FB, not many if any, jump out as the best of the best at least in the 50s highlights I've seen. My impression was more that Graham got the ball to anyone and everyone and even though the rushing statistics don't impress, was able to run it in some key moments too. I think he'd be one of three I'd build my modern (post single platoon) era team around (maybe LT and Munoz for other two).

[JuggernautJ]

Not to derail the oft-repeated and scintillating Manning vs Brady debate...


But, when the 50th and 75th anniversary teams were decided, who were the QBs who almost made the cut but were left out?
What was the popular opinion of that at the time?

Were there those who argued for the inclusion of Luckman on the 50th anniversary team?
How about Starr or Staubach for the 75th?

Who were the major topics of this conversation 25 and 50 years ago?

[TanksAndSpartans]

I have the 50 year team (QB) as Unitas, Baugh, and Van Brocklin (I got it from a message board - oddly I'm not able to find the team on more official sites). My guess is the AAFC thing may have mattered more then than it did 25 years later since Graham wasn't included. I didn't catch the AAFC issue either until a poster brought it up earlier. (No championships and more of a passing tailback, but I'd have had Friedman on the 50 year team as a QB). Also not a QB, but I remember reading where Bednarik was mentioned as a 75 year snub. Some really good players were dropped going from 50 to 75. Interestingly, if Graham was penalized for AAFC, no one much cared that Thorpe never really had a great NFL season as he made the 50 year team. No knock on Grange, but I find him a worse choice than Thorpe who's a player worth fudging 5 years over. So many other options if you consider tailbacks for the HB spot - Dutch Clark if I had to take one.

[JWL]

75th Anniversary All-Time Team
Chosen by a selection committee of media and league personnel in 1994.

OFFENSE
QB- Sammy Baugh
QB- Otto Graham
QB- Joe Montana
QB- Johnny Unitas
RB- Jim Brown
RB- Marion Motley
RB- Bronko Nagurski
RB- Walter Payton
RB- Gale Sayers
RB- O.J. Simpson
RB- Steve Van Buren
WR- Lance Alworth
WR- Raymond Berry
WR- Don Hutson
WR- Jerry Rice
TE- Mike Ditka
TE- Kellen Winslow
T- Roosevelt Brown
T- Forrest Gregg
T- Anthony Munoz
G- John Hannah
G- Jim Parker
G- Gene Upshaw
C- Mel Hein
C- Mike Webster

DEFENSE
DE- Deacon Jones
DE- Gino Marchetti
DE- Reggie White
DT- Joe Greene
DT- Bob Lilly
DT- Merlin Olsen
LB- Dick Butkus
LB- Jack Ham
LB- Ted Hendricks
LB- Jack Lambert
LB- Willie Lanier
LB- Ray Nitschke
LB- Lawrence Taylor
CB- Mel Blount
CB- Mike Haynes
CB- Dick (Night Train) Lane
CB- Rod Woodson
S- Ken Houston
S- Ronnie Lott
S- Larry Wilson

SPECIAL TEAMS
P- Ray Guy
K- Jan Stenerud
PR- Billy (White Shoes) Johnson
KR- Gale Sayers


75th Anniversary All-Two-Way Team
Positions
Quarterback, Defensive Halfback, Punter- Sammy Baugh
Center, Linebacker- Chuck Bednarik
Quarterback, Defensive Halfback, Punter- Earl (Dutch) Clark
Tackle, Defensive Tackle- George Connor
Guard, Defensive Tackle- Danny Fortmann
Center, Defensive Tackle- Mel Hein
Tackle, Defensive Tackle, Punter- Wilbur (Pete) Henry
Back, Defensive Halfback- Bill Hewitt
Fullback, Linebacker, Kicker- Clarke Hinkle
Tackle, Defensive Tackle- Cal Hubbard
End, Defensive Halfback- Don Hutson
Back, Defensive Back- George McAfee
Fullback, Linebacker- Marion Motley
Guard-Tackle, Defensive Tackle- George Musso
Fullback, Linebacker- Bronko Nagurski
Halfback, Defensive Halfback- Ernie Nevers
End, Defensive Back- Pete Pihos
Tackle, Defensive Tackle- Joe Stydahar
Running Back, Defensive Back- Steve Van Buren


50th Anniversary Team
Chosen by the Hall of Fame Selection Committee in 1969.

First Team-
Quarterback- Johnny Unitas
Fullback- Jim Brown
Halfback- Jim Thorpe
Halfback-Gale Sayers
Flanker- Elroy Hirsch
Split End- Don Hutson
Tight End- John Mackey
Tackle- Cal Hubbard
Guard- Jerry Kramer
Center- Chuck Bednarik
Kicker- Lou Groza
Defensive End- Gino Marchetti
Defensive Tackle- Leo Nomellini
Linebacker- Ray Nitschke
Cornerback- Dick (Night Train) Lane
Safety- Emlen Tunnell

Second Team-
Quarterback- Sammy Baugh, Norm Van Brocklin
Fullback- Bronko Nagurski, Joe Perry
Halfback- Red Grange, Hugh McElhenny
Split End- Raymond Berry, Dante Lavelli
Tight End- Mike Ditka, Ron Kramer
Flanker- Boyd Dowler, Lenny Moore
Kicker- Ernie Nevers, Ken Strong
Offensive Tackle- Forrest Gregg, Joe Stydahar
Guard- Danny Fortmann, Jim Parker
Center- Mel Hein, Alex Wojciechowicz
Linebacker- Joe Schmidt, Bulldog Turner
Defensive End- Len Ford, Deacon Jones
Defensive Tackle- Art Donovan, Ernie Stautner
Defensive Halfback- Herb Adderley, Jack Butler
Safety- Jack Christiansen, Larry Wilson


All-Decade teams chosen by the Hall of Fame Selection Committee members.

1920s All-Decade Team
E- Guy Chamberlin
E- Lavern Dilweg
E- George Halas
T- Ed Healey
T- Wilbur (Pete) Henry
T- Cal Hubbard
T- Steve Owen
G- Hunk Anderson
G- Walt Kiesling
G- Mike Michalske
C- George Trafton
QB- Jimmy Conzelman
QB- John (Paddy) Driscoll
HB- Red Grange
HB- Joe Guyon
HB- Earl (Curly) Lambeau
HB- Jim Thorpe
FB- Ernie Nevers


1930s All-Decade Team
E- Bill Hewitt
E- Don Hutson
E- Wayne Millner
E- Gaynell Tinsley
T- George Christensen
T- Frank Cope
T- Glen (Turk) Edwards
T- Bill Lee
T- Joe Stydahar
G- Grover (Ox) Emerson
G- Dan Fortmann
G- Charles (Buckets) Goldenberg
G- Russ Letlow
C- Mel Hein
C- George Svendsen
QB- Earl (Dutch) Clark
QB- Arnie Herber
QB- Cecil Isbell
HB- Cliff Battles
HB- Johnny (Blood) McNally
HB- Beattie Feathers
HB- Alphonse (Tuffy) Leemans
HB- Ken Strong
FB- Clarke Hinkle
FB- Bronko Nagurski


1940s All-Decade Team
E- Jim Benton
E- Jack Ferrante
E- Ken Kavanaugh
E- Dante Lavelli
E- Pete Pihos
E- Mac Speedie
E- Ed Sprinkle
T- Al Blozis
T- George Connor
T- Frank (Bucko) Kilroy
T- Buford Ray
T- Vic Sears
T- Al Wistert
G- Bruno Banducci
G- Bill Edwards
G- Garrard (Buster) Ramsey
G- Bill Willis
G- Len Younce
C- Charley Brock
C- Clyde (Bulldog) Turner
C- Alex Wojciechowicz
QB- Sammy Baugh
QB- Sid Luckman
QB- Bob Waterfield
HB- Tony Canadeo
HB- Bill Dudley
HB- George McAfee
HB- Charley Trippi
HB- Steve Van Buren
HB- Byron (Whizzer) White
FB- Pat Harder
FB- Marion Motley
FB- Bill Osmanski


1950s All-Decade Team
OFFENSE
E- Raymond Berry
E- Tom Fears
E- Bobby Watson
HB/E- Elroy (Crazylegs) Hirsch
T- Roosevelt Brown
T- Bob St. Clair
G- Dick Barwegan
G- Jim Parker
G- Dick Stanfel
C- Chuck Bednarik
QB- Otto Graham
QB- Bobby Layne
QB- Norm Van Brocklin
HB- Frank Gifford
HB- Ollie Matson
HB- Hugh McElhenny
HB- Lenny Moore
FB- Alan Ameche
FB- Joe Perry
K- Lou Groza

DEFENSE
E- Len Ford
E- Gino Marchetti
T- Art Donovan
T- Leo Nomellini
T- Ernie Stautner
LB- Joe Fortunato
LB- Bill George
LB- Sam Huff
LB- Joe Schmidt
HB- Jack Butler
HB- Dick (Night Train) Lane
S- Jack Christiansen
S- Yale Lary
S- Emlen Tunnell


1960s All-Decade Team
OFFENSE
SE- Del Shofner
SE- Charley Taylor
FL- Gary Collins
FL- Boyd Dowler
TE- John Mackey
T- Bob Brown
T- Forrest Gregg
T- Ralph Neely
G- Gene Hickerson
G- Jerry Kramer
G- Howard Mudd
C- Jim Ringo
QB- Sonny Jurgensen
QB- Bart Starr
QB- Johnny Unitas
HB- John David Crow
HB- Paul Hornung
HB- Leroy Kelly
HB- Gale Sayers
FB- Jim Brown
FB- Jim Taylor
K- Jim Bakken

DEFENSE
E- Doug Atkins
E- Willie Davis
E- Deacon Jones
T- Alex Karras
T- Bob Lilly
T- Merlin Olsen
LB- Dick Butkus
LB- Larry Morris
LB- Ray Nitschke
LB- Tommy Nobis
LB- Dave Robinson
CB- Herb Adderley
CB- Lem Barney
CB- Bobby Boyd
S- Eddie Meador
S- Larry Wilson
S- Willie Wood
P- Don Chandler


1970s All-Decade Team
OFFENSE
WR- Harold Carmichael
WR- Drew Pearson
WR- Lynn Swann
WR- Paul Warfield
TE- Dave Casper
TE- Charlie Sanders
T- Dan Dierdorf
T- Art Shell
T- Rayfield Wright
T- Ron Yary
G- Joe DeLamielleure
G- John Hannah
G- Larry Little
G- Gene Upshaw
C- Jim Langer
C- Mike Webster
QB- Terry Bradshaw
QB- Ken Stabler
QB- Roger Staubach
RB- Earl Campbell
RB- Franco Harris
RB- Walter Payton
RB- O.J. Simpson
K- Garo Yepremian

DEFENSE
E- Carl Eller
E- L.C. Greenwood
E- Harvey Martin
E- Jack Youngblood
T- Joe Greene
T- Bob Lilly
T- Merlin Olsen
T- Alan Page
LB- Bobby Bell
LB- Robert Brazile
LB- Dick Butkus
LB- Jack Ham
LB- Ted Hendricks
LB- Jack Lambert
CB- Willie Brown
CB- Jimmy Johnson
CB- Roger Wehrli
CB- Louis Wright
S- Dick Anderson
S- Cliff Harris
S- Ken Houston
S- Larry Wilson
P- Ray Guy


1980s All-Decade Team
OFFENSE
WR- Jerry Rice
WR- Steve Largent
WR- James Lofton
WR- Art Monk
TE- Kellen Winslow
TE- Ozzie Newsome
T- Anthony Munoz
T- Jim Covert
T- Gary Zimmerman
T- Joe Jacoby
G- John Hannah
G- Russ Grimm
G- Bill Fralic
G- Mike Munchak
C- Dwight Stephenson
C- Mike Webster
QB- Joe Montana
QB- Dan Fouts
RB- Walter Payton
RB- Eric Dickerson
RB- Roger Craig
RB- John Riggins

DEFENSE
E- Reggie White
E- Howie Long
E- Lee Roy Selmon
E- Bruce Smith
T- Randy White
T- Dan Hampton
T- Keith Millard
T- Dave Butz
LB- Mike Singletary
LB- Lawrence Taylor
LB- Ted Hendricks
LB- Jack Lambert
LB- Andre Tippett
LB- John Anderson
LB- Carl Banks
CB- Mike Haynes
CB- Mel Blount
CB- Frank Minnifield
CB- Lester Hayes
S- Ronnie Lott
S- Kenny Easley
S- Deron Cherry
S- Joey Browner
S- Nolan Cromwell

SPECIALISTS
P- Sean Landeta
P- Reggie Roby
K- Morten Andersen
K- Gary Anderson
K- Eddie Murray
PR- Billy (White Shoes) Johnson
PR- John Taylor
KR- Mike Nelms
KR- Rick Upchurch

Coach- Bill Walsh
Coach- Chuck Noll


1990s All-Decade Team
OFFENSE
WR- Cris Carter
WR- Jerry Rice
WR- Tim Brown
WR- Michael Irvin
TE- Shannon Sharpe
TE- Ben Coates
T- William Roaf
T- Gary Zimmerman
T- Tony Boselli
T- Richmond Webb
G- Bruce Matthews
G- Randall McDaniel
G- Larry Allen
G- Steve Wisniewski
C- Dermontti Dawson
C- Mark Stepnoski
QB- John Elway
QB- Brett Favre
RB- Barry Sanders
RB- Emmitt Smith
RB- Terrell Davis
RB- Thurman Thomas

DEFENSE
E- Bruce Smith
E- Reggie White
E- Chris Doleman
E- Neil Smith
T- Cortez Kennedy
T- John Randle
T- Warren Sapp
T- Bryant Young
LB- Kevin Greene
LB- Junior Seau
LB- Derrick Thomas
LB- Cornelius Bennett
LB- Hardy Nickerson
LB- Levon Kirkland
CB- Deion Sanders
CB- Rod Woodson
CB- Darrell Green
CB- Aeneas Williams
S- Steve Atwater
S- LeRoy Butler
S- Carnell Lake
S- Ronnie Lott

SPECIALISTS
P- Darren Bennett
P- Sean Landeta
K- Morten Andersen
K- Gary Anderson
PR- Deion Sanders
PR- Mel Gray
KR- Michael Bates
KR- Mel Gray

Coach- Bill Parcells
Coach- Marv Levy

[JWL]

I have the 50 year team (QB) as Unitas, Baugh, and Van Brocklin (I got it from a message board - oddly I'm not able to find the team on more official sites).

It is quite possible it was posted by me on a Jets forum. I know bachslunch once referenced my posts from that board. I just located that thread and copy and pasted some of the teams.

[JWL]

All-Time AFL Team
Chosen by 1969 AFL Hall of Fame Selection Committee members.

First Team
OFFENSE
WR- Lance Alworth
WR- Don Maynard
TE- Fred Arbanas
T- Ron Mix
T- Jim Tyrer
G- Ed Budde
G- Billy Shaw
C- Jim Otto
QB- Joe Namath
RB- Clem Daniels
RB- Paul Lowe

DEFENSE
E- Jerry Mays
E- Gerry Philbin
T- Houston Antwine
T- Tom Sestak
LB- Bobby Bell
LB- George Webster
LB- Nick Buoniconti
CB- Willie Brown
CB- Dave Grayson
S- Johnny Robinson
S- George Saimes

SPECIAL TEAMS
K- George Blanda
P- Jerrel Wilson


Second Team
OFFENSE
WR- Charley Hennigan
WR- Art Powell
TE- Dave Kocourek
T- Winston Hill
T- Stew Barber
G- Bob Talamini
G- Walt Sweeney
C- Jon Morris
QB- Len Dawson
RB- Cookie Gilchrist
RB- Abner Haynes

DEFENSE
E- Ron McDole
E- Rich (Tombstone) Jackson
T- Buck Buchanan
T- Tom Keating
LB- Mike Stratton
LB- Larry Grantham
LB- Dan Conners
CB- George Byrd
CB- Miller Farr
S- Austin (Goose) Gonsoulin
S- Ken Graham

SPECIAL TEAMS
K- Jim Turner
P- Bob Scarpitto


All-Time NFL Team
Chosen by members of the Hall of Fame Selection Committee in 2000.

OFFENSE
WR- Don Hutson
WR- Jerry Rice
TE- John Mackey
T- Roosevelt Brown
T- Anthony Munoz
G- John Hannah
G- Jim Parker
C- Mike Webster
QB- Johnny Unitas
RB- Jim Brown
RB- Walter Payton

DEFENSE
E- Deacon Jones
E- Reggie White
T- Joe Greene
T- Bob Lilly
MLB- Dick Butkus
OLB- Jack Ham
OLB- Lawrence Taylor
CB- Mel Blount
CB- Dick (Night Train) Lane
S- Ronnie Lott
S- Larry Wilson

SPECIAL TEAMS
K- Jan Stenerud
P- Ray Guy
KR- Gale Sayers
PR- Deion Sanders
ST- Steve Tasker

[JWL]

Decade All-Star teams from The Pro Football Chronicle-


1920s
E- Guy Chamberlin
E- Lavie Dilweg
T- Ed Healey
T- Duke Slater
G- Gus Sonnenberg
G- Jim McMillen
C- Clyde Smith
B- Benny Friedman
B- Paddy Driscoll
B- Tony Latone
B- Ernie Nevers

Returner- Two Bits Homan
P- Fats Henry
K- Paddy Driscoll
Wild Card Selection- Charlie Berry
Enforcer- George Trafton
Player-coach- Guy Chamberlin


1930s
E- Bill Hewitt
E- Don Hutson
T- Cal Hubbard
T- George Christensen
G- Mike Michalske
G- Ox Emerson
C- Mel Hein
B- Dutch Clark
B- Bronko Nagurski
B- Cliff Battles
B- Johnny Blood

KR- Whizzer White
K- Jack Manders
P- Ralph Kercheval
Wild Card Selection- Ace Parker
Enforcer- Father Lumpkin
Coach- Curly Lambeau


1940s
E- Don Hutson
E- Jim Benton
T- Bruiser Kinard
T- Al Wistert
G- Bill Willis
G- Dan Fortmann
C- Bulldog Turner
QB- Sammy Baugh
FB- Marion Motley
RB- Steve Van Buren
RB- Bill Dudley

KR- Steve Van Buren
PR- George McAfee
K- Bob Waterfield
P- Sammy Baugh
Enforcer- Ed Sprinkle
Wild Card Selection- Spec Sanders
Coach- George Halas


1950s
OFFENSE
WR- Elroy Hirsch
WR- Lenny Moore
TE- Pete Pihos
T- Rosey Brown
T- Lou Creekmur
G- Jim Parker
G- Dick Stanfel
C- Frank Gatski
QB- Otto Graham
FB- Jimmy Brown
RB- Hugh McElhenny

DEFENSE
E- Gino Marchetti
E- Len Ford
T- Leo Nomellini
T- Art Donovan
LB- Chuck Bednarik
LB- Bill George
LB- Joe Schmidt
CB- Night Train Lane
CB- Jack Butler
S- Em Tunnell
S- Jack Christiansen

KR- Ollie Matson
PR- Jack Christiansen
K- Lou Groza
P- Horace Gillom
Special Teams- Hardy Brown
Kick Blocker- Bob St. Clair
Enforcer- Tex Coulter
Wild Card Selection- Doak Walker
Coach- Paul Brown


1960s
OFFENSE
WR- Lance Alworth
WR- Otis Taylor
TE- Mike Ditka
T- Forrest Gregg
T- Bob Brown
G- Jim Parker
G- Gene Hickerson
C- Jim Ringo
QB- Johnny Unitas
FB- Jim Brown
RB- Gale Sayers

DEFENSE
E- Deacon Jones
E- Willie Davis
T- Merlin Olsen
T- Bob Lilly
LB- Dick Butkus
LB- Bobby Bell
LB- Chuck Howley
CB- Herb Adderley
CB- Willie Brown
S- Larry Wilson
S- Willie Wood

KR- Travis Williams
PR- Leroy Kelly
K- Jan Stenerud
P- Yale Lary
Special Teams- Dave Meggysey
Enforcer- Ben Davidson
Wild Card Selection- Bobby Mitchell
Coach- Vince Lombardi


1970s
OFFENSE
WR- Paul Warfield
WR- Drew Pearson
TE- Dave Casper
T- Dan Dierdorf
T- Art Shell
G- John Hannah
G- Larry Little
C- Jim Langer
QB- Roger Staubach
FB- Earl Campbell
RB- O.J. Simpson

DEFENSE
E- Jack Youngblood
E- Claude Humphrey
T- Joe Greene
T- Alan Page
LB- Jack Ham
LB- Jack Lambert
LB- Ted Hendricks
CB- Mike Haynes
CB- Mel Blount
SS- Ken Houston
FS- Jake Scott

KR- Terry Metcalf
PR- Billy Johnson
K- Garo Yepremian
P- Ray Guy
Special Teams- Rusty Tillman
Kick Blocker- Ted Hendricks
Enforcer- Jack Tatum
Wild Card Selection- Chuck Foreman
Coach- Chuck Noll


1980s
OFFENSE
WR- Jerry Rice
WR- Steve Largent
TE- Kellen Winslow
T- Anthony Munoz
T- Jackie Slater
G- John Hannah
G- Russ Grimm
C- Dwight Stephenson
QB- Joe Montana
RB- Eric Dickerson
RB- Walter Payton

DEFENSE
E- Reggie White
E- Howie Long
T- Randy White
T- Doug English
NT- Michael Carter
LB- Lawrence Taylor
LB- Mike Singletary
LB- Harry Carson
LB- Andre Tippett
CB- Mike Haynes
CB- Lester Hayes
SS- Ken Easley
FS- Ronnie Lott

KR- Mike Nelms
PR- Darrell Green
K- Nick Lowery
P- Rohn Stark
Special Teams- Ron Wolfley
Kick Blocker- Dan Hampton
Enforcer- Lyle Alzado
Wild Card Selection- Roger Craig
Coach- Bill Walsh

[TanksAndSpartans]

I have the 50 year team (QB) as Unitas, Baugh, and Van Brocklin (I got it from a message board - oddly I'm not able to find the team on more official sites).

It is quite possible it was posted by me on a Jets forum. I know bachslunch once referenced my posts from that board. I just located that thread and copy and pasted some of the teams.

Yep, that's exactly where I got it! I copied your entire post and saved it to a file that I reference a lot. Thanks for doing that - I enjoyed that post from before the days I was a member here. Any guess as to why a couple of those teams are so hard to find on the internet?

[JohnTurney]

http://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com/ ... 1960s.html

http://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com/ ... 2000s.html

[Rupert Patrick]

One interesting point I read that favors Manning. Brady is just more of a cog in the Patriots machine. Now, that's not to say that just anyone could step in and have the same success he's has, especially at age 41. But Belichick runs the Patriots, and Brady just fills a role. Now, he works extremely hard at that role and fills it well.

Manning, on the other hand, has always exercised more direct control and he always ran more of the show, serving as de facto offensive coordinator. That proved to be the case with two franchises.

I think this argument may be valid, if you look at how each team responded when they lost their QB for the entire season. In 2008, the Patriots, after losing Brady early in the opening game of the season, still went 11-5, but the 2011 Colts without Peyton Manning dropped from 10-6 to 2-14.