Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Said it before. Big difference between the leagues was turnovers. 1964 Bills turned it over 52 times. This was the most in either league. But overall, more turnovers in the AFL than the NFL.

I don't think Jack Kemp could have started in the NFL. He tried and failed. Would have bounced around as a 2nd/3rd stringer had the AFL not come along. Or gone to the CFL. Others think more of him.

Jay Z wrote:Said it before. Big difference between the leagues was turnovers. 1964 Bills turned it over 52 times. This was the most in either league. But overall, more turnovers in the AFL than the NFL.

I don't think Jack Kemp could have started in the NFL. He tried and failed. Would have bounced around as a 2nd/3rd stringer had the AFL not come along. Or gone to the CFL. Others think more of him.

Well, opinions vary … but if you truly believe that Kemp could not have beaten out Sam Etcheverry, or Dick Shiner, or Jim Ninowski, shoot, probably even Bill Nelson, Bill Kilmer or Randy Johnson, then I have to ask you to share what you're smoking. If you didn't bring enough for everybody, put it away!

JeffreyMiller wrote:

Jay Z wrote:Said it before. Big difference between the leagues was turnovers. 1964 Bills turned it over 52 times. This was the most in either league. But overall, more turnovers in the AFL than the NFL.

I don't think Jack Kemp could have started in the NFL. He tried and failed. Would have bounced around as a 2nd/3rd stringer had the AFL not come along. Or gone to the CFL. Others think more of him.

Well, opinions vary … but if you truly believe that Kemp could not have beaten out Sam Etcheverry, or Dick Shiner, or Jim Ninowski, shoot, probably even Bill Nelson, Bill Kilmer or Randy Johnson, then I have to ask you to share what you're smoking. If you didn't bring enough for everybody, put it away!

Etcheverry played his prime years in the CFL. Shiner and Ninowski only started for a couple of seasons. Ditto Johnson, who was on a Falcons team that was bad even by expansion standards, then had his moments as a backup.

Bill Nelsen and Bill Kilmer were better QBs than Kemp. They won playoff games, played for years.

The late 1950s NFL was a tough league to break into. The Steelers cut Kemp in 1958. They kept 3 QBs; Bobby Layne, Earl Morrall, and Len Dawson. Of those choices I'd cut Kemp as well. But it was tough competition, too many players for too few spots.

Cotton Davidson couldn't hack it in the 1950s NFL either, and he was a #1 pick. I will give Kemp the nod over Davidson because Kemp won more. But Kemp's stats were lousy. Like I said, you simply couldn't be an NFL team in 1964 and turn over the ball 52 times. Kemp was a part of that.

Jay Z wrote:

JeffreyMiller wrote:

Jay Z wrote:Said it before. Big difference between the leagues was turnovers. 1964 Bills turned it over 52 times. This was the most in either league. But overall, more turnovers in the AFL than the NFL.

I don't think Jack Kemp could have started in the NFL. He tried and failed. Would have bounced around as a 2nd/3rd stringer had the AFL not come along. Or gone to the CFL. Others think more of him.

Well, opinions vary … but if you truly believe that Kemp could not have beaten out Sam Etcheverry, or Dick Shiner, or Jim Ninowski, shoot, probably even Bill Nelson, Bill Kilmer or Randy Johnson, then I have to ask you to share what you're smoking. If you didn't bring enough for everybody, put it away!

Etcheverry played his prime years in the CFL. Shiner and Ninowski only started for a couple of seasons. Ditto Johnson, who was on a Falcons team that was bad even by expansion standards, then had his moments as a backup.

Bill Nelsen and Bill Kilmer were better QBs than Kemp. They won playoff games, played for years.

The late 1950s NFL was a tough league to break into. The Steelers cut Kemp in 1958. They kept 3 QBs; Bobby Layne, Earl Morrall, and Len Dawson. Of those choices I'd cut Kemp as well. But it was tough competition, too many players for too few spots.

Cotton Davidson couldn't hack it in the 1950s NFL either, and he was a #1 pick. I will give Kemp the nod over Davidson because Kemp won more. But Kemp's stats were lousy. Like I said, you simply couldn't be an NFL team in 1964 and turn over the ball 52 times. Kemp was a part of that.

Well, I will defer to your superior evaluation skills. This is all subjective anyway. Oh, by the way, the Steelers cut Unitas, too!

Jay Z wrote:The late 1950s NFL was a tough league to break into. The Steelers cut Kemp in 1958. They kept 3 QBs; Bobby Layne, Earl Morrall, and Len Dawson. Of those choices I'd cut Kemp as well. But it was tough competition, too many players for too few spots.

This is one reason the AFL was so successful in the first three years, and able to stay afloat, that they could pick up these NFL castoffs for nothing, and focus on fighting the NFL for the best college talent. In 1960, the ratio of talent to teams to population was such that there was enough latent talent out there to stock a half dozen or so new teams that could play at a level way above the college level but at a notch below the NFL level, and over time that gap would decrease, but at the same time not really diluting the average level of talent over time. These days, I think the NFL can and should expand by two teams every 8-10 seasons to keep up with the growing population and new markets. At that level, I don't think the average talent of the league is diluted 3-5 seasons after an expansion. We will see with this new spring league that there are enough quality players not in the NFL that you could create an all-star roster from this entire league, put them in the NFL, and I think they would win 5-6 games.

JeffreyMiller wrote:Well, let's not forget that many of the players on the Bills defensive squad were drafted by NFL teams, who obviously thought highly enough of them to waste picks on them. So, from that stand point, I'd say many NFL scouts felt pretty strongly about their abilities.

I don't know if I put merit in the "drafted by" argument, but it's an interesting concept when looking at the 1964 Packers defense:

Willie Davis - 15th round pick by Cleveland, shuttled between offense and defense, acquired via trade.
Henry Jordan – 5th round pick by Cleveland, doesn’t fit Cleveland’s system, acquired via trade
Aldridge – 4th round
Kostelnik – 2nd round (Buffalo picks him in 14th round)
Dave Robinson – 1st round
Nitschke – 3rd round pick, converted from FB to MLB
Caffey – 7th round pick by Philly, acquired via trade
Adderley – 1st round pick, converted from HB to CB
Hart – undrafted
Tom Brown – 2nd round (Buffalo picks him in 3rd round)
Willie Wood – undrafted

Dave Robinson is the only 1st round pick that was specific to defense. Adderley was the other 1st rounder. Davis and Jordan were essentially cast-offs from the Browns. Willie Wood and Doug Hart weren’t even drafted. Ironic that the two weakest starters (IMO), Kostelnik and Tom Brown, were the two players also drafted by Buffalo. Anyways, my point is that if you simply looked at draft position, then you wouldn’t think much of the 1964 Packers defense.

Bryan wrote:

JeffreyMiller wrote:Well, let's not forget that many of the players on the Bills defensive squad were drafted by NFL teams, who obviously thought highly enough of them to waste picks on them. So, from that stand point, I'd say many NFL scouts felt pretty strongly about their abilities.

I don't know if I put merit in the "drafted by" argument, but it's an interesting concept when looking at the 1964 Packers defense:

Willie Davis - 15th round pick by Cleveland, shuttled between offense and defense, acquired via trade.
Henry Jordan – 5th round pick by Cleveland, doesn’t fit Cleveland’s system, acquired via trade
Aldridge – 4th round
Kostelnik – 2nd round (Buffalo picks him in 14th round)
Dave Robinson – 1st round
Nitschke – 3rd round pick, converted from FB to MLB
Caffey – 7th round pick by Philly, acquired via trade
Adderley – 1st round pick, converted from HB to CB
Hart – undrafted
Tom Brown – 2nd round (Buffalo picks him in 3rd round)
Willie Wood – undrafted

Dave Robinson is the only 1st round pick that was specific to defense. Adderley was the other 1st rounder. Davis and Jordan were essentially cast-offs from the Browns. Willie Wood and Doug Hart weren’t even drafted. Ironic that the two weakest starters (IMO), Kostelnik and Tom Brown, were the two players also drafted by Buffalo. Anyways, my point is that if you simply looked at draft position, then you wouldn’t think much of the 1964 Packers defense.

You wouldn't think much of their chances with Bart Starr at QB, either. He was drafted in the 17th round.

rhickok1109 wrote:

Bryan wrote:

JeffreyMiller wrote:Well, let's not forget that many of the players on the Bills defensive squad were drafted by NFL teams, who obviously thought highly enough of them to waste picks on them. So, from that stand point, I'd say many NFL scouts felt pretty strongly about their abilities.

I don't know if I put merit in the "drafted by" argument, but it's an interesting concept when looking at the 1964 Packers defense:

Willie Davis - 15th round pick by Cleveland, shuttled between offense and defense, acquired via trade.
Henry Jordan – 5th round pick by Cleveland, doesn’t fit Cleveland’s system, acquired via trade
Aldridge – 4th round
Kostelnik – 2nd round (Buffalo picks him in 14th round)
Dave Robinson – 1st round
Nitschke – 3rd round pick, converted from FB to MLB
Caffey – 7th round pick by Philly, acquired via trade
Adderley – 1st round pick, converted from HB to CB
Hart – undrafted
Tom Brown – 2nd round (Buffalo picks him in 3rd round)
Willie Wood – undrafted

Dave Robinson is the only 1st round pick that was specific to defense. Adderley was the other 1st rounder. Davis and Jordan were essentially cast-offs from the Browns. Willie Wood and Doug Hart weren’t even drafted. Ironic that the two weakest starters (IMO), Kostelnik and Tom Brown, were the two players also drafted by Buffalo. Anyways, my point is that if you simply looked at draft position, then you wouldn’t think much of the 1964 Packers defense.

You wouldn't think much of their chances with Bart Starr at QB, either. He was drafted in the 17th round.

So, all things being equal ... Saying Davis and Jordan were castoffs is exactly what you're saying about guys like Kemp. Given the right opportunity, maybe he would have been a top level QB. Paul Brown certainly didn't think Henry Jordan was going to be. But he found the right opportunity. The Steelers stuck with Earl Morrall and Len Dawson, but how did that work out for them? And where did Dawson end up? Gosh, Morrall was a journeyman most of his career. And arguing that Bill Nelson or Kilmer were superior because they playoff games is a bit simplistic ... Kemp went to the post season six times and won two championships.

Look, I'm not saying Kemp is a HOFer by any means, or any of the Bills defensive players for that matter (though Sestak is close and would have been had things gone a better differently), but I think some NFL hardliners are a bit dismissive when it comes to evaluating the talent of the AFL in that era.

Jay Z wrote: I don't think Jack Kemp could have started in the NFL. He tried and failed. Would have bounced around as a 2nd/3rd stringer had the AFL not come along. Or gone to the CFL. Others think more of him.

Jack Kemp had a very brief stint with the Calgary Stampeders in 1959 before the club released him and named rookie Joe Kapp as their starter.
Kemp was one of four ex-CFL players who went on to earn Associated Press AFL MVP honors:

1962 - Cookie Gilchrist
1963 - Tobin Rote
1964 - Gino Cappelletti
1965 - Jack Kemp

JeffreyMiller wrote:So, all things being equal ... Saying Davis and Jordan were castoffs is exactly what you're saying about guys like Kemp. Given the right opportunity, maybe he would have been a top level QB. Paul Brown certainly didn't think Henry Jordan was going to be. But he found the right opportunity. The Steelers stuck with Earl Morrall and Len Dawson, but how did that work out for them? And where did Dawson end up? Gosh, Morrall was a journeyman most of his career. And arguing that Bill Nelson or Kilmer were superior because they playoff games is a bit simplistic ... Kemp went to the post season six times and won two championships.

Look, I'm not saying Kemp is a HOFer by any means, or any of the Bills defensive players for that matter (though Sestak is close and would have been had things gone a better differently), but I think some NFL hardliners are a bit dismissive when it comes to evaluating the talent of the AFL in that era.

Davis and Jordan weren't castoffs, they were backups. They were in the league. When Jordan was traded, Bob Gain had been moved out to DE and Don Colo had retired. The Browns kept Sid Youngelman and Willie McClung as starters. A rookie Floyd Peters as backup. All solid NFL players at worst, Peters was the best of them. But it was still a mistake.

Here is the AFL QBs I think were better than Kemp: Dawson, Blanda, Lamonica, Namath, Griese, Hadl, Greg Cook.

I rank Kemp better than the other long AFL long timers, Parilli, Davidson, Flores. Because of winning. Not because of stats. Kemp played in a lot of playoff games, but he played poorly in them. 2 TD, 10 INT.

Kemp only started 8 years as a pro. He had a regular caddy.

Yes, Dawson and Morrall were better than Kemp. Joe Kapp beat Kemp out in Calgary in 1959. Based on available evidence, he was also better than Kemp. Yes, Bart Starr was a 17th round pick, but he made the Packers. Much better playoff record than Kemp.

I don't know all of the NFL QBs of the time I would place in front of Kemp. Nelsen and Kilmer, yes. Craig Morton probably. Roman Gabriel, yes. Frank Ryan, Billy Wade, yes. This list is not exhaustive.

Other than playing on winners, Kemp's record is not that great. Other players had better stats, and they played in the playoffs too.