Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

bachslunch wrote:More lists are up.


Place kickers: Nick Lowery's omission is inexcusable. Having Justin Tucker no. 1 is premature at best and ridiculous at worst. Adam Vinatieri and Stephen Gostkowski are far too high at no. 2 and 7. And Lou Groza should be higher than no. 8.

Punters: possibly one of the worst lists. The top four of Sammy Baugh, Shane Lechler, Yale Lary, and Ray Guy certainly belong near the top, and Johnny Hekker, Andy Lee, and Reggie Roby have a place here somewhere. But the omissions are legion: Tommy Davis, Verne Lewellen, Horace Gillom, Jerrel Wilson, Rohn Stark, and Rich Camarillo among them -- and why he picked 1940s AAFC player Glenn Dobbs (who admittedly did have two excellent seasons in a four-year career) over all these folks is a mystery. The bottom half of the list is mostly populated by no-name folks who played within the last 10 years.

The numbers support Tucker. Going by Ruppert Patrick's method...points above average (per game) he's near the top. If you go by career, he's obviously not there yet, but he is on his way.

Agree 100% on Lowery. He's tops all time. Morten had stronger leg and therefore more of the "weapon" but Lowery has good range, too. Just not AS good as Lowery. Top percentage kicker in 1980s = Lowery. 1990s? Lowery.

I have been working on punters, and need one more trip to HOF to finish up, but there were some good punters in 1950s and 1960s that are forgotten... will be fun to bring them up.

John, agreed fully that Justin Tucker is off to a terrific start. If he can make a long career at this level, he'll be among the best. But he's got an awfully long way to go, which is why I said "premature at best."

bachslunch wrote:John, agreed fully that Justin Tucker is off to a terrific start. If he can make a long career at this level, he'll be among the best. But he's got an awfully long way to go, which is why I said "premature at best."

Premature is fair. I equate him and Johnny Hekker and JJ Watt. Right now, stat-wise, they are in the, call it, top 5 of all time. But, unless you exclude current players from lists, it's hard not to rank them as they currently are.

So, for all the oddities in Gil's list I don't fault him for Tucker, but I do see your point. Tucker, Hekker and Watt could all fall off their current pace and then in the final analysis not be as highly ranked.

Like in 1969, were would Gale Sayers rank?

bachslunch wrote:
Place kickers: Nick Lowery's omission is inexcusable. Having Justin Tucker no. 1 is premature at best and ridiculous at worst. Adam Vinatieri and Stephen Gostkowski are far too high at no. 2 and 7. And Lou Groza should be higher than no. 8.

Punters: possibly one of the worst lists. The top four of Sammy Baugh, Shane Lechler, Yale Lary, and Ray Guy certainly belong near the top, and Johnny Hekker, Andy Lee, and Reggie Roby have a place here somewhere. But the omissions are legion: Tommy Davis, Verne Lewellen, Horace Gillom, Jerrel Wilson, Rohn Stark, and Rich Camarillo among them -- and why he picked 1940s AAFC player Glenn Dobbs (who admittedly did have two excellent seasons in a four-year career) over all these folks is a mystery. The bottom half of the list is mostly populated by no-name folks who played within the last 10 years.

http://www.talkoffamenetwork.com/countd ... -all-time/

If I hadn't had Lowery #1 he'd not even have made this list, with 3 HOF voters.

Coming closer to finishing the punters. Horace Gillom, Yale Lary and TOmmy Davis all about 37.7-37.9 net average. Guys like David Lee around 34, Bobby Walden about 35.5, Mike Bragg about 34.5

I suspect Bobby Joe Green is the "Nick Lowery" of punters. A guy who has the best stats, even in so-so home kicking field, and no one knows it. I think his net punting will be just over 38, best of all time up until the recent guys.

Of course, punting when through a radical change in 1974...with the new rules. The dead ball era for punters was 1974-78 or so, which coincided with the live ball era of punt returners (White Shoes, Upchurch, etc).

The kicking game sure went through a lot in 1974, with both kickers and punters.

John, it's interesting to see net yardage numbers being brought up, something undeniably important but a listing I can't find anywhere. This takes touchbacks into account, for one thing. By contrast, average yards per punt is well documented at the PFR website and elsewhere.

How does Ray Guy do here? One knock against him was his supposed tendency to have a lot of touchbacks, something I've heard yes or no on depending on the source.

bachslunch wrote:John, it's interesting to see net yardage numbers being brought up, something undeniably important but a listing I can't find anywhere. This takes touchbacks into account, for one thing. By contrast, average yards per punt is well documented at the PFR website and elsewhere.

How does Ray Guy do here? One knock against him was his supposed tendency to have a lot of touchbacks, something I've heard yes or no on depending on the source.

Ray Guy's net for his career is 35.o not goo nor bad. But, he played in the deab ball era, but the reason for his so-so net is touchbacks, as you mention. He was aggressive and would try for the coffin corner, and hit some and miss some.
'I suppose Madden didn't really care, if you get on at the five great, if not, a toucback is better than Upchurch aking one back.

So, I wonder what the coaching was like in the mid-1970s.

By my count he was 2nd in 1973, 1st in 1974 and 1975, middle of the pack in 76, 3rd in 1977 and 78, middle of the pack in 79, tied for 2nd in 1980,

so in 1974 and 75 he was likely 1st (need a couple of punters's data) but with a 34.4 and 35.0 net, which is low. The net league avg in 1972 was about 36, but 1974-76 it was less than 33. It really dropped. The touchback wasn't, I guess, that bad an option when you couldn't send so many cover guys down.

In the 1970s, GUy was the ebst, even with a high touchback number, John James was likely next. The guy with highest net for the 1970s was Dave lewis with 38.4 but he only had 285 punts.

From 1975-85 Guy's net in #1, at 35.2 (Tom Slkadany was 35.3 but only had 295 punts) so GUy is tops but it's the tops of the era he was in. And it could have really been dominant.

JohnTurney wrote: http://www.talkoffamenetwork.com/countd ... -all-time/

If I hadn't had Lowery #1 he'd not even have made this list, with 3 HOF voters.

Yup, saw this. BTW, Chase Stuart agrees with you on Lowery as no. 1 (as do I).

http://www.footballperspective.com/the- ... -rankings/

An excerpt:

"Lowery played from 1978 to 1996. The length of his average field goal attempt was 36.6 yards, and the length of his average made field goal was 34.8 yards. Lowery attempted 479 field goals in his career; based on the distance of those kicks and the era in which he played, we would expect an average kicker to have made about 337.6 of those attempts. Instead, Lowery made 383 of them, a whopping 45.4 field goals above expectation. Thought of another way, Lowery’s expected field goal rate was 70.5%, while his actual was 80.0%, so he was successful an extra 9.5% of the time he lined up to kick. That’s remarkable. In short, Lowery was the most valuable field goal kicker in NFL history."

No question Adam Vinatieri is benefiting from serious narrative boost. Have posted a reply on both kickers on the thread. May post here about the narrative issue to get some feedback.