Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Bryan wrote:

SixtiesFan wrote:#1 on the list is a good choice IMO. He isn't much remembered despite considerable success with the team he spent the most time with.

I think putting Ryan #1 is a bit much, and the write-up is very misleading. They guy Ryan replaced (Milt Plum) put up better numbers in 1960 & 1961 than Ryan did in subsequent years. The article tries to portray Ryan as the bad-luck 3rd best QB of his generation by saying his All-Pro status was blocked by Unitas and Starr, but I don't know if Ryan was ever really better than guys like Sonny Jurgensen, YA Tittle, Fran Tarkenton, even John Brodie and Roman Gabriel. I guess if the thought is that Ryan is underrated because he was a middle-of-the-pack QB who happened to win a title and is now forgotten, then I would agree. But to say that Ryan made Gary Collins a pro bowl WR and compare Ryan to Joe Theismann winning the NFL MVP in 1983 is overselling Ryan's accomplishments, IMO.

rhickok1109 wrote:

Bryan wrote:

SixtiesFan wrote:#1 on the list is a good choice IMO. He isn't much remembered despite considerable success with the team he spent the most time with.

I think putting Ryan #1 is a bit much, and the write-up is very misleading. They guy Ryan replaced (Milt Plum) put up better numbers in 1960 & 1961 than Ryan did in subsequent years. The article tries to portray Ryan as the bad-luck 3rd best QB of his generation by saying his All-Pro status was blocked by Unitas and Starr, but I don't know if Ryan was ever really better than guys like Sonny Jurgensen, YA Tittle, Fran Tarkenton, even John Brodie and Roman Gabriel. I guess if the thought is that Ryan is underrated because he was a middle-of-the-pack QB who happened to win a title and is now forgotten, then I would agree. But to say that Ryan made Gary Collins a pro bowl WR and compare Ryan to Joe Theismann winning the NFL MVP in 1983 is overselling Ryan's accomplishments, IMO.

I think Plum's number are very misleading. He was a guy who pretty consistently choked in big situations. It's a very small sample, but he had a 27.4 rating in two playoff games and I don't think he would ever have won a playoff game, no matter he was playing for.

SixtiesFan wrote:Have you read Paul Brown's 1979 autobiography? Brown goes into some detail about Milt Plum's deficiencies. By contrast PB has high praise for Frank Ryan.

BD Sullivan wrote:

SixtiesFan wrote:Have you read Paul Brown's 1979 autobiography? Brown goes into some detail about Milt Plum's deficiencies. By contrast PB has high praise for Frank Ryan.

Brown also had a tendency to hold grudges for eternity (see Modell and Mac Speedie): he traded Plum soon after the QB publicly criticized him in 1962 and a few months later, acquired Ryan from the Rams.

JeffreyMiller wrote:

BD Sullivan wrote:

SixtiesFan wrote:Have you read Paul Brown's 1979 autobiography? Brown goes into some detail about Milt Plum's deficiencies. By contrast PB has high praise for Frank Ryan.

Brown also had a tendency to hold grudges for eternity (see Modell and Mac Speedie): he traded Plum soon after the QB publicly criticized him in 1962 and a few months later, acquired Ryan from the Rams.

I think his relationship with Modell surpassed grudge stage ..

BD Sullivan wrote:

SixtiesFan wrote:Have you read Paul Brown's 1979 autobiography? Brown goes into some detail about Milt Plum's deficiencies. By contrast PB has high praise for Frank Ryan.

Brown also had a tendency to hold grudges for eternity (see Modell and Mac Speedie): he traded Plum soon after the QB publicly criticized him in 1962 and a few months later, acquired Ryan from the Rams.