Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

jeckle_and_heckle wrote:Depends on what your goal is.

If your goal is to win 13 games and not be the Browns, then the sky is not falling. Lose an AFC Championship game, go home, smoke your pipe, content to be pretty darn good and, eh, not the Browns.

But guess what? When the Patriots lose an AFC Championship game they DO believe thy sky is falling. Did you see the way Bill Belichick looked at the AFC Championship trophy? Like they handed him a steaming chunk of toenail cheese.

The Broncos fired John Fox for losing Super Bowls and playoff games.

If Brown played for the Patriots and did what he did, he probably would not have started or even played in the game, and there's a good chance he'd find himself on another team next year.

If Tomlin coached in Denver, he'd be out of a job today.

For the great teams, it's Super Bowl or bust, baby.

By that logic, Cowher - who you hyped up earlier - should have been gone well before 2005/winning a SB ...

... and isn't one of the reasons the Steelers are one of the premier franchises because of stability?

Comparisons to the Patriots, eh, no one else is the Patriots. 31 franchises are less than over the past decade and a half.

Comparisons to the Broncos. The last ten years the Steelers have been to as many SB's and won as many as Denver. Broncos missed the playoffs this year and Kubiak certainly would be back next season had he not left on his own. Need more of a track record of firing coaches other than the Fox/Kubiak situation before we can say Denver gets rid of coaches instantly if they don't win the Super Bowl.

Regardless, I generally think the Steelers organization knows what they're doing. In the AFC, the legitimate SB contenders for a while now have been the Patriots, whoever Manning brought with him and then every few years the Steelers/Ravens (mirror teams) rise to that level. Manning is obviously gone so that basically takes a competitive team out and is why I thought before the season that the AFC was NE and the Steelers would be behind them. Next season probably NE or Pittsburgh, too. That's the AFC, the other teams just make up the playoff field and never really have a chance. There's not a lot of competition. This era of the NFL has a lot of bad teams, a lot of below average teams and a lot of teams considered good because they make the playoffs that are actually average at best (look at the junk in the AFC playoffs this year, if it was 1989 the Texans not only wouldn't have won a division they wouldn't even have been a wild card team, yet that's who NE had to beat to get to the AFCCG). Especially in the AFC, there's not even a handful of possible championship teams, there's just a couple. I'd rather be the Patriots and at the top of that list, of course, but if I can't be them then I want to be the team that's next in line, always right there and essentially there when it's not the Patriots year. Or you can blow it up and possibly lose your spot in line. My thoughts, at least.

Reaser wrote:

jeckle_and_heckle wrote:Depends on what your goal is.

If your goal is to win 13 games and not be the Browns, then the sky is not falling. Lose an AFC Championship game, go home, smoke your pipe, content to be pretty darn good and, eh, not the Browns.

But guess what? When the Patriots lose an AFC Championship game they DO believe thy sky is falling. Did you see the way Bill Belichick looked at the AFC Championship trophy? Like they handed him a steaming chunk of toenail cheese.

The Broncos fired John Fox for losing Super Bowls and playoff games.

If Brown played for the Patriots and did what he did, he probably would not have started or even played in the game, and there's a good chance he'd find himself on another team next year.

If Tomlin coached in Denver, he'd be out of a job today.

For the great teams, it's Super Bowl or bust, baby.

By that logic, Cowher - who you hyped up earlier - should have been gone well before 2005/winning a SB ...

... and isn't one of the reasons the Steelers are one of the premier franchises because of stability?

Comparisons to the Patriots, eh, no one else is the Patriots. 31 franchises are less than over the past decade and a half.

Comparisons to the Broncos. The last ten years the Steelers have been to as many SB's and won as many as Denver. Broncos missed the playoffs this year and Kubiak certainly would be back next season had he not left on his own. Need more of a track record of firing coaches other than the Fox/Kubiak situation before we can say Denver gets rid of coaches instantly if they don't win the Super Bowl.

Regardless, I generally think the Steelers organization knows what they're doing. In the AFC, the legitimate SB contenders for a while now have been the Patriots, whoever Manning brought with him and then every few years the Steelers/Ravens (mirror teams) rise to that level. Manning is obviously gone so that basically takes a competitive team out and is why I thought before the season that the AFC was NE and the Steelers would be behind them. Next season probably NE or Pittsburgh, too. That's the AFC, the other teams just make up the playoff field and never really have a chance. There's not a lot of competition. This era of the NFL has a lot of bad teams, a lot of below average teams and a lot of teams considered good because they make the playoffs that are actually average at best (look at the junk in the AFC playoffs this year, if it was 1989 the Texans not only wouldn't have won a division they wouldn't even have been a wild card team). Especially in the AFC, there's not even a handful of possible championship teams, there's just a couple. I'd rather be the Patriots and at the top of that list, of course, but if I can't be them then I want to be the team that's next in line, always right there and essentially there when it's not the Patriots year. Or you can blow it up and possibly lose your spot in line. My thoughts, at least.

Regarding Cowher, sure. Then again, he never had the blue chip quarterback Tomlin does. When he got one, he won a championship.

As for Steelers' stability, absolutely. That stability--and the presence of Big Ben--is what's allowed Tomlin to field winning teams. But the head coach has to take a team over the top. He did it early on--much the same way Switzer won with Johnson's team. But the last few years? Not up to the task. If anything, he's regressed. As you mentioned, the organization knows what they're doing. Tomlin? Not so sure. When asked before the game whether the Brown fiasco would affect the team, Tomlin said his team was loose, fired up, and ready to play. Then then game happened. Drops. No energy. Confused. Flat footed. That's on Tomlin. There have been bigger routs in NFL playoff history, but I don't know that I've seen a team as talented as the Steelers so unprepared to play a game like they were against the Patriots. It was embarrassing.

As for Broncos, I meant the Broncos since Elway has been GM. Since he came on board, easily one of the best run teams in the NFL. Sure, they missed the playoffs this year. When acquiring Manning, Elway basically traded a Super Bowl for the problem of finding a quarterback after they won it. They'll never admit it publicly, but I believe their realistic goal this year was to be in the mix while they re-stock. Mission accomplished. And nope, don't think we need more of a track record. Elway was clear when introducing Vance Joseph that the expectations are Super Bowl high. You'll see the same quick hook if Joseph doesn't get it done.

Elway was clear when introducing Vance Joseph that the expectations are Super Bowl high. You'll see the same quick hook if Joseph doesn't get it done.

The Vance Joseph thing is interesting because of the sexual assault charges filed against him when he was an assistant at Colorado around 12 years ago:

http://www.dailycamera.com/broncos-nfl/ ... t-colorado

I wonder if Bowlen would allow this guy to be hired if he was in control of the team and didn't have Alzheimer's.

jeckle_and_heckle wrote:

Reaser wrote:

jeckle_and_heckle wrote:Depends on what your goal is.

If your goal is to win 13 games and not be the Browns, then the sky is not falling. Lose an AFC Championship game, go home, smoke your pipe, content to be pretty darn good and, eh, not the Browns.

But guess what? When the Patriots lose an AFC Championship game they DO believe thy sky is falling. Did you see the way Bill Belichick looked at the AFC Championship trophy? Like they handed him a steaming chunk of toenail cheese.

The Broncos fired John Fox for losing Super Bowls and playoff games.

If Brown played for the Patriots and did what he did, he probably would not have started or even played in the game, and there's a good chance he'd find himself on another team next year.

If Tomlin coached in Denver, he'd be out of a job today.

For the great teams, it's Super Bowl or bust, baby.

By that logic, Cowher - who you hyped up earlier - should have been gone well before 2005/winning a SB ...

... and isn't one of the reasons the Steelers are one of the premier franchises because of stability?

Comparisons to the Patriots, eh, no one else is the Patriots. 31 franchises are less than over the past decade and a half.

Comparisons to the Broncos. The last ten years the Steelers have been to as many SB's and won as many as Denver. Broncos missed the playoffs this year and Kubiak certainly would be back next season had he not left on his own. Need more of a track record of firing coaches other than the Fox/Kubiak situation before we can say Denver gets rid of coaches instantly if they don't win the Super Bowl.

Regardless, I generally think the Steelers organization knows what they're doing. In the AFC, the legitimate SB contenders for a while now have been the Patriots, whoever Manning brought with him and then every few years the Steelers/Ravens (mirror teams) rise to that level. Manning is obviously gone so that basically takes a competitive team out and is why I thought before the season that the AFC was NE and the Steelers would be behind them. Next season probably NE or Pittsburgh, too. That's the AFC, the other teams just make up the playoff field and never really have a chance. There's not a lot of competition. This era of the NFL has a lot of bad teams, a lot of below average teams and a lot of teams considered good because they make the playoffs that are actually average at best (look at the junk in the AFC playoffs this year, if it was 1989 the Texans not only wouldn't have won a division they wouldn't even have been a wild card team). Especially in the AFC, there's not even a handful of possible championship teams, there's just a couple. I'd rather be the Patriots and at the top of that list, of course, but if I can't be them then I want to be the team that's next in line, always right there and essentially there when it's not the Patriots year. Or you can blow it up and possibly lose your spot in line. My thoughts, at least.

Regarding Cowher, sure. Then again, he never had the blue chip quarterback Tomlin does. When he got one, he won a championship.

As for Steelers' stability, absolutely. That stability--and the presence of Big Ben--is what's allowed Tomlin to field winning teams. But the head coach has to take a team over the top. He did it early on--much the same way Switzer won with Johnson's team. But the last few years? Not up to the task. If anything, he's regressed. As you mentioned, the organization knows what they're doing. Tomlin? Not so sure. When asked before the game whether the Brown fiasco would affect the team, Tomlin said his team was loose, fired up, and ready to play. Then then game happened. Drops. No energy. Confused. Flat footed. That's on Tomlin. There have been bigger routs in NFL playoff history, but I don't know that I've seen a team as talented as the Steelers so unprepared to play a game like they were against the Patriots. It was embarrassing.

I don't know. How about a team that finished the regular season with a 15-1 record. They host a team they beat in the regular season by 14. They are down 24-3 at halftime, at home, and loose the game 41-27. That would be the Bill Cowher coached Steelers led by Ben Roethlisberger in a game against the ......Patriots.

A rookie quarterback (albeit a darn good one) lost a conference championship game? Nah, that would never happen.

I agree with the statements that there is no "Cowher/Tomlin" era... each man needs to be considered on his own merits.

But perhaps what historians will see decades from now when they look back and see the Steelers as bastions of stability in an otherwise turbulent time is the Dan Rooney Era.

JuggernautJ wrote:I agree with the statements that there is no "Cowher/Tomlin" era... each man needs to be considered on his own merits.

But perhaps what historians will see decades from now when they look back and see the Steelers as bastions of stability in an otherwise turbulent time is the Dan Rooney Era.

I have come to the conclusion that although Art Rooney was a great guy by all accounts, and did a lot for the team, his son's legacy has surpassed him. I think in the future Art Rooney will be fondly remembered as the founder of the Steelers, but Dan Rooney will be remembered as the most important person in the history of the Pittsburgh Steelers.

Rupert Patrick wrote:

JuggernautJ wrote:I agree with the statements that there is no "Cowher/Tomlin" era... each man needs to be considered on his own merits.

But perhaps what historians will see decades from now when they look back and see the Steelers as bastions of stability in an otherwise turbulent time is the Dan Rooney Era.

I have come to the conclusion that although Art Rooney was a great guy by all accounts, and did a lot for the team, his son's legacy has surpassed him. I think in the future Art Rooney will be fondly remembered as the founder of the Steelers, but Dan Rooney will be remembered as the most important person in the history of the Pittsburgh Steelers.

I don't think there's any question about that. While Art was running things, the team had 18 coaches and 6 winning seasons in 36 years. Things changed as soon as Dan insisted on hiring Chuck Noll in 1969. Since then, the team has had 3 coaches and 34 winning seasons.

rhickok1109 wrote:

Rupert Patrick wrote:
I have come to the conclusion that although Art Rooney was a great guy by all accounts, and did a lot for the team, his son's legacy has surpassed him. I think in the future Art Rooney will be fondly remembered as the founder of the Steelers, but Dan Rooney will be remembered as the most important person in the history of the Pittsburgh Steelers.

I don't think there's any question about that. While Art was running things, the team had 18 coaches and 6 winning seasons in 36 years. Things changed as soon as Dan insisted on hiring Chuck Noll in 1969. Since then, the team has had 3 coaches and 34 winning seasons.

Dan Rooney's first coaching hire was Bill Austin in 1966. He was fired after 3 seasons. In the history of the Steelers dvd Art Modell says that Dan didn't want to go to the AFC but it was his dad that made the decision to go. It's hard to pinpoint exactly when Dan Rooney took over the Steelers full time.

MatthewToy wrote:

rhickok1109 wrote:

Rupert Patrick wrote:
I have come to the conclusion that although Art Rooney was a great guy by all accounts, and did a lot for the team, his son's legacy has surpassed him. I think in the future Art Rooney will be fondly remembered as the founder of the Steelers, but Dan Rooney will be remembered as the most important person in the history of the Pittsburgh Steelers.

I don't think there's any question about that. While Art was running things, the team had 18 coaches and 6 winning seasons in 36 years. Things changed as soon as Dan insisted on hiring Chuck Noll in 1969. Since then, the team has had 3 coaches and 34 winning seasons.

Dan Rooney's first coaching hire was Bill Austin in 1966. He was fired after 3 seasons. In the history of the Steelers dvd Art Modell says that Dan didn't want to go to the AFC but it was his dad that made the decision to go. It's hard to pinpoint exactly when Dan Rooney took over the Steelers full time.

Well, this is how the Austin hiring is described in "Rooney: A Sporting life": "Dan Rooney winnowed the pool of fifty candidates for the head coach position to five men. They interviewed Bill Austin first. The session with Austin, who had crafted Green Bay's offensive line for Vince Lombardi, went well. When Art called Lombardi afterward, the coaching great endorsed Austin. Art told Dan to offer him the job. Dan protested that they should conduct more interviews, but Art disagreed: 'I don't need to talk to them. Lombardi says he's our man.'"