Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

mwald wrote:

JohnTurney wrote:

rhickok1109 wrote:Why is Leroy Butler never in this conversation? A 4-time first team All-Pro (to 2 for Lynch, 2 for Atwater, and 3 for Browner) and a member of the all-90s team, along with Atwater (Lott and Carnell Lake are on the second team).

Wolf said yesterday,
“LeRoy deserves to be in that conversation,” Wolf said in a telephone interview. “He was the quintessential safety. He could do everything you needed a safety to do -- he could play at the line of scrimmage, he could tackle, he could cover man-to-man, he could dog (blitz). He had no weakness.

Well, considering their Packers' careers coincided almost exactly (yep, I know he didn't draft him), I'd consider those the comments of a homer.

Not that they aren't accurate.

Bill Parcells agrees with Wolf.

rhickok1109 wrote: Bill Parcells agrees with Wolf.

Well, I also agree with Wolf. Just saying that Wolf endorsing Butler for the HOF is like a father endorsing his son for little league.

That said, anyone willing to say he'd be happy to bat .333 in the draft commands my respect. Most egos of his stature would never step up and demystify the process like that. Love the honesty.

I do not agree that Sam Mills is a HOFer at all.

Gradishar, Mecklenburg, Bergey, Nobis are all better--much better--choices, IMO.

Versatile John wrote:I do not agree that Sam Mills is a HOFer at all.

Gradishar, Mecklenburg, Bergey, Nobis are all better--much better--choices, IMO.

Agreed. Sam Mills to me was more like a Jack Reynolds than a Tommy Nobis. Great player, but not a HOFer IMO. As you said, there are other MLBs who are likely more deserving than Mills.

Versatile John wrote:I do not agree that Sam Mills is a HOFer at all.

Gradishar, Mecklenburg, Bergey, Nobis are all better--much better--choices, IMO.

Here's what I'm thinking. Unlike other decades, which are knee-deep in MLBs and short on OLBs, the reverse is true for the 80s and 90s. Best I can tell, the only MLB/ILBs in the HoF from this era are Mike Singletary and Harry Carson. And that strikes me at least as too thin. So who should get in? And how many more?

My thought was that two more wouldn't be unreasonable. Here are some candidates, with honors profiles:

-Karl Mecklenburg 4/6/none
-Sam Mills 3/5/none
-Hardy Nickerson 2/5/90s
-Chris Spielman 2/4/none
-Levon Kirkland 1/2/90s
-Vaughan Johnson 1/4/none
-Jessie Tuggle 0/5/none
-John Offerdahl 1/5/none
-Fredd Young 2/4/none
-Al Smith 2/2/none
-Shane Conlan 1/3/none
-Bryan Cox 1/3/none
-Pepper Johnson 1/2/none
-E.J. Junior 1/2/none
-Jim Collins 2/1/none
-Jerry Robinson 1/1/none
-Steve Nelson 0/3/none
-Scott Studwell 0/2/none
-Johnny Rembert 0/2/none
-Mike Johnson 0/2/none
-Matt Millen 0/1/none
-Robin Cole 0/1/none
-Michael Brooks 0/1/none
-Eugene Lockhart 1/0/none
-Carl Ekern 0/1/none
-Dino Hackett 0/1/none
-Winfred Tubbs 0/1/none
-John Grimsley 0/1/none
-David Little 0/1/none

If you're going to put in only one, it should be Mecklenburg. Add a second and I think it's Mills. Add more and you're going roughly Nickerson, Spielman, Johnson, Tuggle, Kirkland, Offerdahl, and Young in about that order.

The other players mentioned are Seniors (as may be a few of the older also-rans mentioned above in my big list). Unfortunately, if we wait to induct anyone else until all of them get in, nobody will, and that helps no one. And except for Gradishar who straddles the 70s and 80s, these folks are from the already heavily represented 60s and 70s for this position. Here are honors for each as well as an additional option:

-Randy Gradishar 4/7/none
-Bill Bergey 4/5/none
-Tommy Nobis 2/5/60s
-Lee Roy Jordan 2/5/none

Gradishar I support for the HoF, and he's got the best honors of the bunch, plus there might be a some pioneer credit due him for being an important early success as an ILB in a 3-4. I'm less sold on the other three because the period is so loaded at the position, though they're all strong players.

bachslunch wrote:

Versatile John wrote:I do not agree that Sam Mills is a HOFer at all.

Gradishar, Mecklenburg, Bergey, Nobis are all better--much better--choices, IMO.

Here's what I'm thinking. Unlike other decades, which are knee-deep in MLBs and short on OLBs, the reverse is true for the 80s and 90s. Best I can tell, the only MLB/ILBs in the HoF from this era are Mike Singletary and Harry Carson. And that strikes me at least as too thin. So who should get in? And how many more?

My thought was that two more wouldn't be unreasonable. Here are some candidates, with honors profiles:

-Karl Mecklenburg 4/6/none
-Sam Mills 3/5/none
-Hardy Nickerson 2/5/90s
-Chris Spielman 2/4/none
-Levon Kirkland 1/2/90s
-Vaughan Johnson 1/4/none
-Jessie Tuggle 0/5/none
-John Offerdahl 1/5/none
-Fredd Young 2/4/none
-Al Smith 2/2/none
-Shane Conlan 1/3/none
-Bryan Cox 1/3/none
-Pepper Johnson 1/2/none
-E.J. Junior 1/2/none
-Jim Collins 2/1/none
-Jerry Robinson 1/1/none
-Steve Nelson 0/3/none
-Scott Studwell 0/2/none
-Johnny Rembert 0/2/none
-Mike Johnson 0/2/none
-Matt Millen 0/1/none
-Robin Cole 0/1/none
-Michael Brooks 0/1/none
-Eugene Lockhart 1/0/none
-Carl Ekern 0/1/none
-Dino Hackett 0/1/none
-Winfred Tubbs 0/1/none
-John Grimsley 0/1/none
-David Little 0/1/none

If you're going to put in only one, it should be Mecklenburg. Add a second and I think it's Mills. Add more and you're going roughly Nickerson, Spielman, Johnson, Tuggle, Kirkland, Offerdahl, and Young in about that order.

The other players mentioned are Seniors (as may be a few of the older also-rans mentioned above in my big list). Unfortunately, if we wait to induct anyone else until all of them get in, nobody will, and that helps no one. And except for Gradishar who straddles the 70s and 80s, these folks are from the already heavily represented 60s and 70s for this position. Here are honors for each as well as an additional option:

-Randy Gradishar 4/7/none
-Bill Bergey 4/5/none
-Tommy Nobis 2/5/60s
-Lee Roy Jordan 2/5/none

Gradishar I support for the HoF, and he's got the best honors of the bunch, plus there might be a some pioneer credit due him for being an important early success as an ILB in a 3-4. I'm less sold on the other three because the period is so loaded at the position, though they're all strong players.

Seriously.

Just to drive home my point from the other day, Zach Thomas is 4/7/2000's and he doesn't make your list? Jim Collins, Robin Cole and no Thomas??? He could perform an act of self immolation and nonody would pay attention.

NWebster: I consider Zack Thomas a 00s MLB, not an 80s/90s guy, so I didn't list him, or Ray Lewis or Brian Urlacher for that matter. I think all three are no-doubt HoFers.

I think Thomas was actually a 5-time 1st team all pro, not 4. Even more ammo to justify his election.

NWebster wrote:Seriously.

Just to drive home my point from the other day, Zach Thomas is 4/7/2000's and he doesn't make your list? Jim Collins, Robin Cole and no Thomas??? He could perform an act of self immolation and nonody would pay attention.

I loved Jim Collins when he was on the Rams. Carl Ekern, too.

Tommy Nobis is a tough one for me, I lovery the guy, but his best season was his rookie year. And after year three he was really a shell of himself. He had the career Terrell Davis would've had if Terrell had stuck around 4 more years getting 600 to 800 yards.

Not referring to you guys at all......BUT, I think the voters are a bit enamored with Sam Mills, because of his small stature, where he came from, how he was successful going against the odds, etc. It is kind of like the Kurt Warner scenario in many ways.

If Mills would have been a player from a bigger school, been drafted higher, with greater expectations.....I do not think he is a serious candidate.

Also, his premature death, as sadly as that sounds, helps him get votes as well.

Different position per se: But how is Greg Lloyd NEVER in any of the voters' minds?