Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Bryan wrote: I would assume that its easier for a pitcher to compile high ERA+ and WAR in a hitter-friendly era. For Koufax to have matched Pedro's 154 ERA+, he would have needed something like a 0.42 ERA. Koufax made his name in the postseason...0.95 ERA, sub 1.00 WHIP, 61 Ks in 57 IP.

ERA-plus and WAR are adjusted for park, era, and position. That should take into account Pedro pitching in a major live-ball era and much of it in a hitter's park.

Bob Gill wrote:

SixtiesFan wrote:In the seventh game of the 1965 World Series, Sandy Koufax beat the Minnesota Twins 2-0 with a 3-hit shutout. This game was at Minnesota in a good hitters park and the Twins had the strongest lineup in baseball that year. Koufax was pitching on two-days rest after a long season. His arm was throbbing with pain and he didn't have a curve ball that day.

Koufax still won. I recall during 1963-66 listening to games on the radio with Koufax pitching. If the Dodgers went ahead 1-0, you'd think-That's it, game's over. And it often was.

Right.

I am not at all unaware of the effects of Dodger Stadium, but I have no hesitation in saying Koufax in those last few years was the best pitcher I've ever seen.

Perhaps not coincidentally, Koufax led the league in ERA-plus in 1964 and 1966. And he was indeed excellent in the postseason. Never said Koufax was a bad pitcher, just not the best ever.

bachslunch wrote:

Bob Gill wrote:

SixtiesFan wrote:In the seventh game of the 1965 World Series, Sandy Koufax beat the Minnesota Twins 2-0 with a 3-hit shutout. This game was at Minnesota in a good hitters park and the Twins had the strongest lineup in baseball that year. Koufax was pitching on two-days rest after a long season. His arm was throbbing with pain and he didn't have a curve ball that day.

Koufax still won. I recall during 1963-66 listening to games on the radio with Koufax pitching. If the Dodgers went ahead 1-0, you'd think-That's it, game's over. And it often was.

Right.

I am not at all unaware of the effects of Dodger Stadium, but I have no hesitation in saying Koufax in those last few years was the best pitcher I've ever seen.

Perhaps not coincidentally, Koufax led the league in ERA-plus in 1964 and 1966. And he was indeed excellent in the postseason. Never said Koufax was a bad pitcher, just not the best ever.

No, you wouldn't say Koufax was the best ever by the criteria of a long career. For his first seven seasons, 1955-61, Koufax was a .500 pitcher, 54-53. He was better in 1962, but had an injury curtailing his effectiveness and probably costing the Dodgers the 1962 pennant.

I would take the Sandy Koufax of 1963-66 over anybody.

This thread's seemingly getting close to being shut down, given the baseball-only comments that dominate it.

Well, we can't have that, can we? Too many people seem to be enjoying this thread.

So...

Allie Sherman reminds me of Sandy Koufax:

Both southpaws; both born in Brooklyn; both graduates of prestigious universities not some temple of athletic adulation;
both had short careers; both were extremely successful in their chosen sport; both were dedicated students of their game
and explored every possibility for success; both were Jewish and both were a credit to their family, their sport, their Country
and their Religion.

Wondering... would the same threat be implied if the talk was of tweedledee and tweedledum?

Wow, some very interesting observations! This topic is so open to interpretation that almost anything goes, it's kind of like free association -- what pitcher pops into your mind when you think of a given QB? That being said, I think the person who made the Joe Gilliam-Dock Ellis connection was genius. I totally get it. Spot on!